Noah and the Flood is a Legend?

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patg:
I find that my suggested reasoning exactly matches what is logical as the author’s intent.
By what hermeneutic? Or are you just guessing?

What of the re-readings in the NT? Did all humanity die in the supposed “local” flood excepting just the eight of Noah’s Ark? Or was it just that region that flooded, killing humanity of just that local area?

How did St. Matthew interpret the deluge? Your guesswork notwithstanding, I find Catholic hermeneutics to be more compelling.
 
As for whether or not the 1905 magisterial judgments of the Pontifical Biblical Commission are still applicable, I refer you to the article by Fr. Brian Harrison, here:

The Encyclical Sprititus Praclitus in its Historical Context
******by Rev. Brian W. Harrison, O.S., M.A., S.T.D.

Part I

rtforum.org/lt/lt60.html
Part II
rtforum.org/lt/lt61.html

He still refers to the same 1905 decision, authoritatively.
 
Patg,
I understand the church’s traditional interpretation and teachings - they were formed long before it was even known that the earth was not the center of the universe.
As for the center of the universe, where is it? Is it known that the earth is not the center? I’ve worked as a spacecraft engineer for several years and have helped to launch 5 satellites into orbit. Ironically, in space operations, we use a geocentric model of the universe.

It is my understanding that we don’t know where the center of the universe is, because we don’t know where the edge of the universe is. Is the center of the universe the sun? The earth? We simply don’t know. How this relates to the historicity of the worldwide deluge is beyond me, however.
 
Patg,

Your remarks call to mind what Cardinal William Baum, while Prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education, wrote:
There is a rupture between Bible and Church, between Scripture and Tradition. . . . In the name of science, many exegetes no longer wish to interpret Scripture in the light of faith, and the end result is that doubt is cast on essential truths of faith such as the divinity of Christ and his virginal conception in the womb of Mary, the salvific and redeeming value of Christ’s death, the reality of his Resurrection and of his institution of the Church. The results of this so-called scientific exegesis are being diffused in seminaries, [theological] faculties and universitites, and even among the faithful, also by means of catechesis and sometimes even in preaching. Dei Verbum recommended scientific exegesis, but within the bounds of the faith, since the historical-scientific method alone is not sufficient in this field

[Harrison, B., “Pope Paul VI and the Truth of Sacred Scripture,” *Living Tradition,
No. 68, Jan 1997, cited in footnote 5, G. Caprile, *Il Sinodo dei Vescovi: seconda assemblea generale straordinaria: 24 novembre - 8 dicembre 1985 *(Rome: La Civiltà Cattolica, 1986), p. 204.]
I’m simply advocating that instead of the so-called scientific exegesis that has thus far been offered, Catholics ought to use Catholic hermeneutics as recommended by the magisterium. Perhaps there is a solid argument for abandoning the historical Catholic interpretation of the historicity of the worldwide deluge, however, I haven’t seen one yet that adhere’s to Catholic hermeneutical guidelines.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Patg,

As for the center of the universe, where is it? Is it known that the earth is not the center? I’ve worked as a spacecraft engineer for several years and have helped to launch 5 satellites into orbit. Ironically, in space operations, we use a geocentric model of the universe.

It is my understanding that we don’t know where the center of the universe is, because we don’t know where the edge of the universe is. Is the center of the universe the sun? The earth? We simply don’t know. How this relates to the historicity of the worldwide deluge is beyond me, however.
Many may be surprised that this is not a totally closed issue.

From what I can gather the only way to know for sure is to observe our solar system from an outside vantage point to find out what really rotates around what.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Patg,

As for the center of the universe, where is it? Is it known that the earth is not the center? I’ve worked as a spacecraft engineer for several years and have helped to launch 5 satellites into orbit. Ironically, in space operations, we use a geocentric model of the universe.

It is my understanding that we don’t know where the center of the universe is, because we don’t know where the edge of the universe is. Is the center of the universe the sun? The earth? We simply don’t know. How this relates to the historicity of the worldwide deluge is beyond me, however.
Ok, sorry for the example - I should have said that the earth with heaven above it WAS the universe. My point was that while our world view is very different from the ancient O.T. writers, many of the church teachings still reflect the old view. Sure the story of Noah teaches truths, like that disobeying God has serious consequences, but that does not mean it is historical. I’m sure that a flood that left sea fossils on hilltops would have been thought to have covered the whole world - their world was only thought to be the area right around them! It is pointless to argue whether it was a world wide flood or local because “local” meant the whole world back then.

As for the N.T. references - it is common literary practice to use examples from fiction and fact to make points - it proves nothing.

Pat
 
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buffalo:
Many may be surprised that this is not a totally closed issue.

From what I can gather the only way to know for sure is to observe our solar system from an outside vantage point to find out what really rotates around what.
We are pretty confident that the sun is the center of the solar system, although other models are used for other various purposes. It’s more likened to picking a coordinate system and standardizing your reference origin. What is conventionally used as your origin is mostly dependent upon the utility, and not to be taken as objective truth.

What Patg and Ghosty described was a non-geocentric *universe. *as if it was a foregone conclusion that we knew that to be false. The universe is filled with many solar systems and many galaxies. To pretend that we know what the center of the universe is, in my opinion, is a bit absurd. From my vantage point, the earth is the center of the unvierse. As a space operations officer in the USAF, select another reference point is rather useless.
 
Patg,
As for the N.T. references - it is common literary practice to use examples from fiction and fact to make points - it proves nothing.
On the contrary, in accordance Catholic hermeneutics, re-readings of the OT in the NT shed greater light upon the meaning of the passage. Your assertions are less weighty than that of the common and constant consent of the Catholic Church, who without fail have insisted upon the historicity of the deluge as affecting all of mankind, with only the eight saved by the Ark.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on “deluge”:
The Deluge is referred to in several passages of Scripture as a historical fact; the writings of the Fathers consider the event in the same light …

a) The following are some of the New Testament passages which imply that the Deluge was a real historical event: “And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, and they knew not. till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt., xxiv, 37-39). In these words Christ regards the Flood with its circumstances as being not less real than the last days will be of which He speaks in the passage. The same view concerning the Flood, Christ implies in Luke, xvii, 26-27. In the Epistle to the Hebrews (xi, 7) the inspired writer is not less clear about the historicity of the Flood: “By faith, Noe having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen, moved with fear, framed the ark for the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world; and was instituted heir of the justice which is by faith.” St. Peter (I Peter, iii, 20) too refers to the ark and the Flood as historical facts: “When they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water”. He returns to the same teaching in II Peter, ii, 5. We might appeal to Is., liv, 9; Nah., i, 8; Ezech., xiv, 14; Ecclus., xliv, 18 sq.; Ps. xxviii, 10; xxxi, 6; but what has been said sufficiently shows that the Bible urges the historicity of the Deluge story.

*The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IV, *“Deluge,” 1908 by Robert Appleton Company Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight]
Pope St. Pius X wrote:
We find it necessary to declare and prescribe, as We do now declare and expressly prescribe, that all are bound in conscience to submit to the decisions of the Biblical Commission, which have been given in the past and which shall be given in the future, in the same way as to the Decrees which appertain to doctrine, issued by the Sacred Congregations and approved by the Sovereign Pontiff. Nor can they escape the stigma both of disobedience and temerity nor be free from grave guilt as often as they impugn these decisions either in word or writing; and this, over and above the scandal which they give and the sins of which they may be the cause before God by making other statements on these matters which are very frequently both rash and false.

Motu Proprio of St. Pius X, Præstantia Sacræ Scripturæ, EB 271]
It’s rather disconcerting that Catholics so easily disregard Catholic hermeneutical guidance from the magisterium in favor of their own interpretational methodologies.
 
Ever since the Earthmovers convinced the whole world that the earth has been proven to move around the sun, the Bible has been labelled ‘unscientific’, supposedly reflecting the illusions of men in a pre-scientific age. To my knowledge, and in spite of all that is propagated to the contrary, no science, no anthropology, archaeology or anything has ever proven the Bible, or to be more precise, the Fathers’ interpretation of it, to be untrustworthy in any sphere, whether in its age for the world, its geocentric basis, its shape for the earth (Is. 40:22), its flood-caused geology, its sketch of the water cycle (Eccles. 1:7), its fixity of kinds, diversity of species and methods of generation, its sanitation laws (Deut. 23:12-14), even its rules for quarantining (Lev. 13:1-5) and so on. As regards human society, here again the Bible cannot be found wanting. Genesis tells us created man was monotheistic, intelligent and civilised from the very beginning. After the Fall and again after the Flood, many did lapse into primitive ways, seeking out any environment that could sustain them, whether village, jungle, desert, cave or mud-hut, such as can be found even today. Nevertheless, because man is an ordered, intellectual and social creature, records were prone to be kept, both oral and written. It is reasonable to say then that if the Bible records a real 6,000-year history, surely this past should be evident in the traditions of all peoples, whether primitive or sophisticated. As it happens, this is the case. There is not a single culture discovered that had/has not a perfect language and a history of the world that begins with the biblical account, an original couple and a flood. For examples let us consider the following studies:

(1) An investigation into Chinese palaeography, God’s Promise To The Chinese. In a summary of this book, the reviewer states:

‘The three joint-authors have clearly demonstrated, to this reviewer’s satisfaction at least, that the inventor of the original Chinese characters, which were inscribed on tortoise shells and bones, knew and believed in an identical account of creation and earth’s beginnings to that found in Moses’ Book of Genesis…. The Chinese have always revered their writing system. Calligraphy ranks supreme in their artistic scale of values…Just 142 of the earliest hieroglyphic pictograms contain, in a highly condensed (and therefore mentally portable and ineradicable form) key components of the Book of Genesis. Since the truth or otherwise of the Flood has profound implications for the study of geology, in the Book of Documents (Sha Ching), written 3,000 years ago, we read: “The flood waters were everywhere, destroying everything as they rose above the hills and swelled up to Heaven.” ’—Tim Williams, Christian Order, November 2001, pp.629-63, reviewing God’s Promise To The Chinese by E. Nelson, R. Broadberry and G. Chock, Read Books, HCR 65 Box 580, Dunlap, TN 37327, USA, 1997.

The authors show the earliest Chinese were monotheists who worshiped ShangDi or the one ‘God Above’. For more than 4,000 years they sacrificed to Him in the imperial city of Beijing in what was called the ‘Border Sacrifice’. Confucius (551-479BC) thought the Border Sacrifice so significant that he accredited the efficient ruling of the Chinese empire to it. The Border Sacrifice ended only when the Manchu Ch’ing dynasty was deposed in 1911.

(2) In the book, After The Flood (Bill Cooper: After The Flood, New Wine Press, 22 Arun Business Park, Bognor Regis, West Sussex, PO22 9SX, England, 1995.) - a 25-year study into Middle Eastern/European palaeography - Bill Cooper traces the early post-flood history of the Middle East and Europe. His task was to see if the ‘Table of Nations’ (Genesis Chapter 10 and 11) could be verified in the history of nations prior to Christianity. If he could find a lineage from the Japhetic line in these histories it would confirm the Bible also recorded true history. Cooper found ample evidence in eastern and western archives to confirm Middle East and European lines are both descended from the Japhetic tree. In Britain, Wales and Ireland he found the records of the early settlers went back 2,000 years, with the same genealogy to European differing only in language. What amazed Cooper was that the evidence of this history was so easy to find and so evident that he concluded its absence from textbooks, schools, universities etc., could only be a deliberate omission by those determined to undermine the Bible as recording true history.
 
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