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davy39
Guest
My wife is a sponser in RCIA for my stepson, who is interested in joining the church. They were told that the old testament story of Noahs Ark was just a story, and never really happened. True of False?
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Mijoy2
Guest
From my understanding we are called to believe it was an actual event.
Not sure about Job though.
Not sure about Job though.
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Toni
Guest
There is a documentary at the video stores on this and they have found part of the original ark on Mt Arafat where Noah landed.
I get so frustrated with people who teach this. As always I am glad when people do question this nonsense though because there are far to many people who actually walk away believing the lies of incompetent teachers. (The most frustrating of all is who lets them teach RCIA anyway?)
GN 8: 3-5
*3 Gradually the waters receded from the earth. At the
end of one hundred and fifty days, the waters had so diminished
4 that, in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day
**of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
**5 The waters continued to diminish until the tenth
month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the
mountains appeared.
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twf
Guest
Many cultures around the world, as far away from the Middle East as the Aztecs in Mexico and the Aboriginees in Australia believe in a great flood in which few people survived. The evidence is quite overwhelming. (In fact, in the Aztec story, there was a single man and his wife who survived, and the flood was caused by the gods…sound familiar? Remember these guys were in Latin America, not near the ancient Hebrews nor Babylonians). The story in the Scriptures is written as a historical event, as far as I know, so why should it be taken any differently if we are to accept Scriptures as inspired? (Not only is it written as a historic event, other Sacred Writers refer to it as a real event). Here are some other Scripture verses that refer to the Flood as a real event outside of Genesis. (Those who claim that the Flood is an allegory must also claim that these other Sacred Writers, as well as the Church Fathers, were ignorant of the Truth):
From Job 22:
15 Wilt thou keep the old way Which wicked men have trodden?
16 Who were snatched away before their time, Whose foundation was poured out as a stream,
17 Who said unto God, Depart from us; And, What can the Almighty do for us?
From Matthew 22 (Even Jesus HIMSELF BELIEVED in the Flood!):
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
From Luke 17 (Again, Jesus believed that the Flood actually happened!)
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Our first Pope believed it was a true historic event (From 2 Peter 2):
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
So why is it that modern Catholics are far more *enlightened * than both our Lord and His first Vicar? Hmm…is it possible that thel liberal forces in our Church are wrong?
I’m, more or less, a ‘recent special creationist’, so the following links reflect this, but I’ll share them anyway, even though I know people will be jumping on me any minute here. I also want to say, as a disclaimer of sorts, that the following pages are Protestant, so I do not necessarily endorse or agree with everything that may be said.
answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp
answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/noah.asp
God bless.
Tyler
From Job 22:
15 Wilt thou keep the old way Which wicked men have trodden?
16 Who were snatched away before their time, Whose foundation was poured out as a stream,
17 Who said unto God, Depart from us; And, What can the Almighty do for us?
From Matthew 22 (Even Jesus HIMSELF BELIEVED in the Flood!):
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
From Luke 17 (Again, Jesus believed that the Flood actually happened!)
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Our first Pope believed it was a true historic event (From 2 Peter 2):
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
So why is it that modern Catholics are far more *enlightened * than both our Lord and His first Vicar? Hmm…is it possible that thel liberal forces in our Church are wrong?
I’m, more or less, a ‘recent special creationist’, so the following links reflect this, but I’ll share them anyway, even though I know people will be jumping on me any minute here. I also want to say, as a disclaimer of sorts, that the following pages are Protestant, so I do not necessarily endorse or agree with everything that may be said.
answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp
answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/noah.asp
God bless.
Tyler
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PhilVaz
Guest
Here we go again, its AnswersInGenesis vs. TalkOrigins 
There was a thread the end of August on this whole issue, and I gave all my favorite TalkOrigins links and scientific evidence and objections to a global flood in that thread.
There is no scientific evidence for a global flood, and many Christians interpret the Genesis 6-9 account as a local flood, not a worldwide one. A prominent old-earth creationist for this position is Hugh Ross. Another is Glenn Morton. It’s not really a Catholic issue it seems to me, except for those influenced by fundamentalist/evangelical creationist writings.
In the Ask an Apologist Q and A the answer given is the Church teaches what Genesis teaches, but its a question for science on the how and when of the flood, not theology. So there you Ken Ham and Jonathan Sarfati fans.
Phil P
There was a thread the end of August on this whole issue, and I gave all my favorite TalkOrigins links and scientific evidence and objections to a global flood in that thread.
There is no scientific evidence for a global flood, and many Christians interpret the Genesis 6-9 account as a local flood, not a worldwide one. A prominent old-earth creationist for this position is Hugh Ross. Another is Glenn Morton. It’s not really a Catholic issue it seems to me, except for those influenced by fundamentalist/evangelical creationist writings.
In the Ask an Apologist Q and A the answer given is the Church teaches what Genesis teaches, but its a question for science on the how and when of the flood, not theology. So there you Ken Ham and Jonathan Sarfati fans.
Phil P
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
Why do you think that Truth and allegory are incompatible?
If Jesus taught in parables why couldn’t His Father?
Why limit both the Deity and his listeners with literalism?
Without a literal Noah is the story of the faithful being saved through God’s intercession any less powerful?
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Ghosty
Guest
The story is true, but it is not necessarily factual in all details. A boat was built, animals and humans were saved, and a flood certainly happened. These things are indisputable. It is debated how large the flood was, how many types of animals were on board, and how long the flood lasted, but this is due to questions of perspective on the part of the people recounting the tale and writing it down. I find it shocking that the notion that “it’s all made up” is coming down from an RCIA class (if I understand your post correctly).
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carol_marie
Guest
I’m currently in RCIA and was told the same thing about the book of Genesis including Adam & Eve… all stories PROBABLY not to be taken literally. I believe the book of Genesis recorded actual historical events so I’ve chosen NOT to believe what the Priest said in the RCIA class… I guess that makes me a cafeteria Catholic?
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WBB
Guest
I recommend Making Senses Out of Scripture by Mark Shea. It goes a long way in explaining in quite clear terms what you should know when it comes to interpreting scriptures.
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Toni
Guest
carol marie:
Good for you! I have dealt with so many people on so many things from Mary having more children to the white washed versions of the miracles of Jesus. I have always told them all the same. My faith tells me to believe, so you could show me 5000 bible quotes or scientific garbage but I will still follow the Church teachings and the truth.
“The Bible was written by the hand of God through man”.
when absolutely necessary I have looked for the answers for the people that are lost. But if God said the sky is really green I for one would believe.
No just one of us that believe without a bunch of scientific evidence!
Good for you! I have dealt with so many people on so many things from Mary having more children to the white washed versions of the miracles of Jesus. I have always told them all the same. My faith tells me to believe, so you could show me 5000 bible quotes or scientific garbage but I will still follow the Church teachings and the truth.
“The Bible was written by the hand of God through man”.
when absolutely necessary I have looked for the answers for the people that are lost. But if God said the sky is really green I for one would believe.
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PhilVaz
Guest
Toni << But if God said the sky is really green I for one would believe. >>
You wouldn’t make a very good scientist then (obviously). The thing about the “global flood about 3000 years ago” (or whenever) idea is that something like this can be scientifically tested. And here are just some of the problems if you accept that
(1) rapid evolution around 10,000 times faster than Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Lewontin or Richard Dawkins – to get from the thousands of “kinds” of animals onboard Noah’s ark to the 1.5 million or so species that we see today in just a couple thousand years (depending when you date the Flood)
(2) there must have been about 2,100 different kinds of living animals per acre of land on earth just before the Flood (the calculation is taken from estimates of the Karoo Formation in South Africa which contains the remains of some 800,000,000,000 (billion) animals representing approx 1% of total, divided by number of acres of land on earth)
(3) the “evolutionary” ordering of the fossils found throughout the geological strata (fish before amphibians before reptiles before mammals, etc), a global flood would mix up the order considerably, or sort by “weight” which we definitely do not see
(4) no evidence of a global flood in ice cores (going back 40,000 years) or tree rings (going back 10,000 years) or varves such as the Green River Formation (going back 20,000,000 years with each layer requiring at least a month to settle)
(5) a global flood cannot explain limestone deposits (billions of microscopic sea animals thousands of meters thick), chalk deposits (plankton settle very slowly), salt and sedimentary (30,000 feet thick) deposits requiring much time to form (not possible in one year of a flood)
(6) species distribution and diversity (biogeography), how did the Kangaroos (marsupials) get to/from Australia (and only Australia) to/from the Ark near Ararat?
(7) where did all the water come from, and where did it go?
Scientific “garbage” like that. Which is why I tend to go with a local flood. A global or worldwide flood just isn’t possible. “Flood geology” hasn’t been believed for about 200 years, but it was revived in the 1960s by the Whitcomb/Morris book The Genesis Flood and the fundamentalist Protestant creationist movement that sprang from that. Just so you know. 
Phil P
You wouldn’t make a very good scientist then (obviously). The thing about the “global flood about 3000 years ago” (or whenever) idea is that something like this can be scientifically tested. And here are just some of the problems if you accept that
(1) rapid evolution around 10,000 times faster than Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Lewontin or Richard Dawkins – to get from the thousands of “kinds” of animals onboard Noah’s ark to the 1.5 million or so species that we see today in just a couple thousand years (depending when you date the Flood)
(2) there must have been about 2,100 different kinds of living animals per acre of land on earth just before the Flood (the calculation is taken from estimates of the Karoo Formation in South Africa which contains the remains of some 800,000,000,000 (billion) animals representing approx 1% of total, divided by number of acres of land on earth)
(3) the “evolutionary” ordering of the fossils found throughout the geological strata (fish before amphibians before reptiles before mammals, etc), a global flood would mix up the order considerably, or sort by “weight” which we definitely do not see
(4) no evidence of a global flood in ice cores (going back 40,000 years) or tree rings (going back 10,000 years) or varves such as the Green River Formation (going back 20,000,000 years with each layer requiring at least a month to settle)
(5) a global flood cannot explain limestone deposits (billions of microscopic sea animals thousands of meters thick), chalk deposits (plankton settle very slowly), salt and sedimentary (30,000 feet thick) deposits requiring much time to form (not possible in one year of a flood)
(6) species distribution and diversity (biogeography), how did the Kangaroos (marsupials) get to/from Australia (and only Australia) to/from the Ark near Ararat?
(7) where did all the water come from, and where did it go?
Scientific “garbage” like that.
Which is why I tend to go with a local flood. A global or worldwide flood just isn’t possible. “Flood geology” hasn’t been believed for about 200 years, but it was revived in the 1960s by the Whitcomb/Morris book The Genesis Flood and the fundamentalist Protestant creationist movement that sprang from that. Just so you know. Phil P
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Mijoy2
Guest
I couldn’t agree more that a global flood is not possible. There are many reasons a global floood is not possible.Scientific “garbage” like that.
Phil P
I also believe creating a universe is not possible. Which is why I believe in the global flood (if you catch my “drift” ; pun intended)
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PhilVaz
Guest
MJoy << I also believe creating a universe is not possible. Which is why I believe in the global flood (if you catch my “drift” ; pun intended) >>
Sorry I don’t. So you are saying the global flood, and all the scientific objections I brought up, are supposed to be explained by thousands of miracles that are not mentioned in Genesis?
Like the reason the kangaroos went from Australia to the Ark, and back from the Ark to Australia is that “God guided them that way.”
And the reason that macroevolution and speciation occured 10,000 times faster than Stephen Jay Gould or Richard Dawkins would even dream, is that “God guided evolution that quickly.” From 2 of each “kind” to approx 2 million species in a couple thousand years. Now you sound like a theistic evolutionist. And a fast one.
And the Green River Formation requiring 20,000,000 (million) years to form, was just a miracle that God did in one year of the Flood? Limestone, chalk, sedimentary deposits thousands of feet thick, all miracles? The ordering of the fossils in the exact evolutionary order (fish, then amphibs, then reptiles, then mammals, then homo sapiens, etc) we find them? Another miracle?
And there were approx 2,100 animals (from dinosaurs to foxes to insects) on every acre of land on earth just before the Flood (since all animals, save the two of each kind, died in the global flood) ? A bit crowded I would think. Another miracle?
Creation of the universe from the “singularity” of the Big Bang is one thing (a single miracle, God created the heavens and the earth, etc), but invoking thousands of miracles to explain the history of the planet and the formations of earth is not biblical nor scientific. But that’s what you have to do with a global flood.
A local flood is exegetically plausible (see Hugh Ross, Glenn Morton above) and scientifically feasible. In other words it fits both faith and reason.
Phil P
Sorry I don’t. So you are saying the global flood, and all the scientific objections I brought up, are supposed to be explained by thousands of miracles that are not mentioned in Genesis?
Like the reason the kangaroos went from Australia to the Ark, and back from the Ark to Australia is that “God guided them that way.”
And the reason that macroevolution and speciation occured 10,000 times faster than Stephen Jay Gould or Richard Dawkins would even dream, is that “God guided evolution that quickly.” From 2 of each “kind” to approx 2 million species in a couple thousand years. Now you sound like a theistic evolutionist.
And a fast one.And the Green River Formation requiring 20,000,000 (million) years to form, was just a miracle that God did in one year of the Flood? Limestone, chalk, sedimentary deposits thousands of feet thick, all miracles? The ordering of the fossils in the exact evolutionary order (fish, then amphibs, then reptiles, then mammals, then homo sapiens, etc) we find them? Another miracle?
And there were approx 2,100 animals (from dinosaurs to foxes to insects) on every acre of land on earth just before the Flood (since all animals, save the two of each kind, died in the global flood) ? A bit crowded I would think. Another miracle?
Creation of the universe from the “singularity” of the Big Bang is one thing (a single miracle, God created the heavens and the earth, etc), but invoking thousands of miracles to explain the history of the planet and the formations of earth is not biblical nor scientific. But that’s what you have to do with a global flood.
A local flood is exegetically plausible (see Hugh Ross, Glenn Morton above) and scientifically feasible. In other words it fits both faith and reason.
Phil P
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kepha1
Guest
Q: Did the fish drown?
A: it’s irrelevant. God cleansed the EARTH, no mention of the sea
A: it’s irrelevant. God cleansed the EARTH, no mention of the sea
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PhilVaz
Guest
<< Q: Did the fish drown? >>
Hee hee. Oh yeah that reminds me. I forgot to mention to believe the kangaroos got from Australia to the Ark near Ararat and back, they would have to swim the ocean back and forth. Bingo, another miracle, swimming kangaroos! Do I need to remind you global flood theorists just where Australia is?
Or were the seven continents all connected at that time just 3000 years ago? Talk about more miracles, all the continents therefore were separated with massive “plate tectonics miracles” in a few thousand years! Sorry it doesn’t work like that.
The general scientific consensus is of course the continents were separated more slowly over a period of 250,000,000 years. Here is an article on Pangea and Continental Drift. This took a long time, not 3000 years since Noah. So there. Kangaroos exist. Australia exists. Local flood theory proved. 
Phil P
Hee hee.
Oh yeah that reminds me. I forgot to mention to believe the kangaroos got from Australia to the Ark near Ararat and back, they would have to swim the ocean back and forth. Bingo, another miracle, swimming kangaroos! Do I need to remind you global flood theorists just where Australia is? Or were the seven continents all connected at that time just 3000 years ago? Talk about more miracles, all the continents therefore were separated with massive “plate tectonics miracles” in a few thousand years! Sorry it doesn’t work like that.
The general scientific consensus is of course the continents were separated more slowly over a period of 250,000,000 years. Here is an article on Pangea and Continental Drift. This took a long time, not 3000 years since Noah. So there. Kangaroos exist. Australia exists. Local flood theory proved.
Phil P
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twf
Guest
PhilVaz: I’d like to discuss this more with you, but not at the moment. (Partly because I plan to go to bed fairly soon).
Steve: Of course parables can tell truths. My point was that Jesus and St. Peter clearly believed that the flood actually happened. So did the Church Fathers. Whether you believe it was global or local, you must believe that it happened in one way or another. I’m not a ‘literalist’, as you put it. I know that Scripture uses allegory…but not always. When Jesus refers to a historic event to drive a point home, then that historic event happened. When Jesus tells a parable, it did not necessarily happen. We must interpret Scripture how it was written. If the author refers to something as a historical happening, then it was indeed a historical happening. I didn’t say that we should take parables literally, but in the case of the Flood, it is referred to as an actual historic event. (By Jesus, St. Peter, the author of Job, and by the Church Fathers). As well, if you do not even believe in a local flood that destroyed mankind, then how do you explain the “Flood myths” from around the world (and as far away as the Aztecs in Mexico).
God bless.
Steve: Of course parables can tell truths. My point was that Jesus and St. Peter clearly believed that the flood actually happened. So did the Church Fathers. Whether you believe it was global or local, you must believe that it happened in one way or another. I’m not a ‘literalist’, as you put it. I know that Scripture uses allegory…but not always. When Jesus refers to a historic event to drive a point home, then that historic event happened. When Jesus tells a parable, it did not necessarily happen. We must interpret Scripture how it was written. If the author refers to something as a historical happening, then it was indeed a historical happening. I didn’t say that we should take parables literally, but in the case of the Flood, it is referred to as an actual historic event. (By Jesus, St. Peter, the author of Job, and by the Church Fathers). As well, if you do not even believe in a local flood that destroyed mankind, then how do you explain the “Flood myths” from around the world (and as far away as the Aztecs in Mexico).
God bless.
M
Maccabees
Guest
What stike one is funny is that secular geologist and secular historians are now coming to believe the story is true! Albeit maybe not on worldscale level. But a great regional flood that would cover the known world of primitive societies.
Now members of the church are doubting what seculrist are admitting as true? WE have to reevangelize our own RICIA cathechist amazing. Sure there are degrees of alegory in certain OT storeis but they are not complete alegory the church fathers when allegorizing stories did not completely write off the literal interpretation. NOah’s ark is true and literal while at the same time allegory and prefirurement of the fullfillment of the church.
Now members of the church are doubting what seculrist are admitting as true? WE have to reevangelize our own RICIA cathechist amazing. Sure there are degrees of alegory in certain OT storeis but they are not complete alegory the church fathers when allegorizing stories did not completely write off the literal interpretation. NOah’s ark is true and literal while at the same time allegory and prefirurement of the fullfillment of the church.
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edwinG
Guest
God said of all the people who ever lived, only Noah, Job and Daniel proved God fearing.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Maccabees
Guest
Catholics readin too much New Jerome Biblical Commentary?
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PhilVaz
Guest
<< PhilVaz: I’d like to discuss this more with you, but not at the moment. (Partly because I plan to go to bed fairly soon). >>
Sure. Answer the kangaroos-to-and-from-Australia and across-the-ocean problem. Did two of the kangaroos swim to Noah, and then swam on back from the Ark to Australia?
I have asked Sungenis this before in Email, and he says the continents were all connected at that time. So he believes in a very speedy separation of the continents since the Flood (around 4000 or so years ago depending when you date it). I understand that such fast continental drift and plate tectonics activity at that rate would have catastrophic effects.
My view is a local flood, and Noah probably did take what animals he could find, and the events were recorded in Genesis to teach a lesson about the universality of sin. It does not require a worldwide flood. Hugh Ross gives the text a local flood interpretation that seems to make sense (book The Genesis Question). God did not need to flood Antarctica since no folks lived there. Stuff like that.
Some quotes by Davis Young, a Christian geologist for good measure:
"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.
“Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God’s truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done. . . .”
Here is how long it takes a penguin to get to Noah’s Ark
http://www.bringyou.to/WalkPeng.gif
“Wait up dudes, and tell Noah to bring a lot of ice cubes!”
Phil P
Sure. Answer the kangaroos-to-and-from-Australia and across-the-ocean problem. Did two of the kangaroos swim to Noah, and then swam on back from the Ark to Australia?
I have asked Sungenis this before in Email, and he says the continents were all connected at that time. So he believes in a very speedy separation of the continents since the Flood (around 4000 or so years ago depending when you date it). I understand that such fast continental drift and plate tectonics activity at that rate would have catastrophic effects.
My view is a local flood, and Noah probably did take what animals he could find, and the events were recorded in Genesis to teach a lesson about the universality of sin. It does not require a worldwide flood. Hugh Ross gives the text a local flood interpretation that seems to make sense (book The Genesis Question). God did not need to flood Antarctica since no folks lived there. Stuff like that.
Some quotes by Davis Young, a Christian geologist for good measure:
"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.
“Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God’s truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done. . . .”
Here is how long it takes a penguin to get to Noah’s Ark
http://www.bringyou.to/WalkPeng.gif
“Wait up dudes, and tell Noah to bring a lot of ice cubes!”
Phil P
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