Non-Catholic (protestant) authority

[Justin1982]

Yet another re-addressing of this statement as it goes ignored for a 3rd time:

Now to get back to confession, notice in the scriptures how when people are forgiven their sins they have spoken aloud to the Son of Man(physical and spiritual), if you want the references I can give them but I think you can understand where I’m coming from there. They spoke directly to him and through an understanding of persona Christi (John 20:23) it is put into context of why we continue today. Through this we do not lose the physical element of confession, because God made us both physical and spiritual. Humility has an enormous role in confession as it also has an enormous role in the Catholic Church.

 

[rev_kevin]

Yet another re-addressing of this statement as it goes ignored for a 3rd time:

Now to get back to confession, notice in the scriptures how when people are forgiven their sins they have spoken aloud to the Son of Man(physical and spiritual), if you want the references I can give them but I think you can understand where I’m coming from there. They spoke directly to him and through an understanding of persona Christi (John 20:23) it is put into context of why we continue today. Through this we do not lose the physical element of confession, because God made us both physical and spiritual. Humility has an enormous role in confession as it also has an enormous role in the Catholic Church.

Give references

 

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

If you are intellectually honest, you will have to admit that the enemies of Christ took this point of view, and the disciples and believers the opposite.

Yes it was his enemies but they did not understand who Jesus was and Jesus confirmed that he was God when he said "I the Son of Man,( how is the Son of Man, God ) have the authority for forgive sins." Who has the authority God.

I agree, but the scripture is clear that it was not just “a man” to whom this authority was given, but “to men” (plural). You must find a way to dispense with this verse.
"guanophore:

Indeed, it is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and all who believe in Him will have forgiveness. Jesus was giving the Apostles the authority to determine whether the person seeking forgiveness was actually “believing in Him”. As we can see, The HS was working through Peter when Ananias and Sapphira pretended to be “in Him” but were lying to the HS. By the authority vested in him by Christ, Peter retained their sins.

How would they know if the preson was actually sorry. They couldn’t read their minds or know what was in their hearts. Only God has that ability.

God gave that ability to Peter, did He not?

God also gives it to others. It is a gift of discernment also called the word of knowledge. Some reading about Padre Pio might interest you here. He often received divine insight during confession.

However, the priest assumes that the penitent is sincere in their confession. If they are not making a good confession, the absolution will not apply. A person is absolved if they are sincerely repentant. If not, then no.

Why do you think the Scriptures say God gave this power to men (plural)?

I have stated that we all have the power to forgive someone who has sinned against you.

Yes, I appreciate you sharing that. However, this instruction was not for those kinds of sins. It was for the kind that Annas and Sapphira committed. They are sins against the Church, the Body, and thus, against Christ.

Men had the power to forgive one another before this. This teaching of Jesus was not new - it was in the Law of Moses, the psalms, and the prophets. What was new was the power to forgive sins against God given to men.

 

[guanophore]

Wouldn’t that make them equal to God/Jesus? Wouldn’t that make them their own god’s?

No. We are partakers of His divine nature by Grace. He is divine by His nature. We are grafted into Him. He is the fulness of the Godhead. Moses wielded great authority from God. He did not at any time think he was God, even though God spoke to him face to face as a “friend”.
"guanophore:

How do you dispense with the Scripture that indicates otherwise?

Show Scripture

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house.
Mat 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
Mat 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, ***and glorified God, who had given such authority unto men. ***

Why did not the HS make sure this was singular? The early church believed it was a reference to the authority on earth of the Apostles and their successors to forgive sins in His authority. Why do you think Jesus was too weak or disinterested to correct their misunderstanding?

What happened to the powerful Jesus of the book of Revelation?

Yes we do. I don't see where they were ordained at the Last Supper. I thought that happened when the HS was breated on them.

Things happen when God speaks them into existence. The HS was given to them upon His Word. THey became partakers of His ministry of reconciliation when he washed their feet, and and gave them a part in Him.

They received the power to cathect the Eucharist when He said “do this, in memory of me”.

Acting is one thing but if they had the same authority as Jesus then they would be his equal as I stated above.

No, Kevin. This is a logical error. Mankind can participate in supernatural events because of Grace, not because of our nature. By nature, we will always be human. We participate in His Divine nature by His mercy, not by virtue of who we are - it is because of who He is.

Samuel as well as the other prophets acted in the person of God. The priests of the OT acted in the person of God. They are not God by nature.

And what would be the point of that? Why confess their sins, then not hear they are forgiven by God?

It is hoped that they would snap out of it, and come to repentance.
"guanophore:

Further, why did Jesus tell us that we had to forgive, or we would not be forgiven? If only God can forgive sins, why the Lord’s Prayer?

Faith that God has forgiven your sins if you were infact sorry for them. How does a priest know if you are infact truly sorry?

A person should not come to confession unless they are. Making a fake confession is the same as the sin of Ananias and Sappira. It is a lie to the HS.

If God does not reveal to the priest otherwise, the penitent is assumed to be sincere.

The Lords Prayer don’t say only priests, I have stated the we all can forgive someone who sinned against us.

Yes. I was addressing your repeated point that “only God can forgive sins”. We can see that this is not the case, when we read the Lord’s prayer.

It don’t need a priest to do that. If someone comes to you and says “I’m sorry I stold from you” then you say “I forgive you” they are forgiven. Is there a priest there everytime you forgive someone for wronging you?

No, and this type of repentance is an important step. However, the person also needs to be reconciled to God.

I explained it in post 86

Yes, and you make a valid point, but you are still not on the side of the enthused believers.

 

[Newbie2]

Faith that God has forgiven your sins if you were infact sorry for them. How does a priest know if you are infact truly sorry? The Lords Prayer don’t say only priests, I have stated the we all can forgive someone who sinned against us. It don’t need a priest to do that. If someone comes to you and says “I’m sorry I stold from you” then you say “I forgive you” they are forgiven. Is there a priest there everytime you forgive someone for wronging you?

Ah, but when we sin against another person, we also sin against God. If we ask for forgiveness from the other person, yes, they may grant it, but we also have to ask forgiveness from God. That’s where the Sacrament of Reconciliation comes in, if the sin is serious, as we’ve stated.