Non-Catholics and repetitive prayers (read: rosary)

[Andrew_Larkoski]

I was listening to a Protestant radio station the other day and the host likened repetitive prayers to God as annoying as tapping a nail (over and over again). He thought God gets annoyed. I was appalled. This was obviously an anti-Catholic statement. I have heard this before.

Question to Protestants: if God is outside time, then if we pray the same prayer every night (like asking to protect our parents) but only once a night, aren’t we annoying God? He recognizes that we prayed once, why pray again?

Also, I believe it was Jesus Christ (God) who prayed to the Father thrice in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He is “in the Father, and the Father in me”, wouldn’t He get annoyed with Himself? Just saying.

I think I’ll go pray a rosary.

 

[Fidelis]

Man, if God hates repetitive prayer, he must REALLY hate Psalm 136:

Ps.136
[1] O give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.
[2] O give thanks to the God of gods,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.
[3] O give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[4] to him who alone does great wonders,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[5] to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[6] to him who spread out the earth upon the waters,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[7] to him who made the great lights,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[8] the sun to rule over the day,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[9] the moon and stars to rule over the night,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[10] to him who smote the first-born of Egypt,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[11] and brought Israel out from among them,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[12] with a strong hand and an outstretched arm,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[13] to him who divided the Red Sea in sunder,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[14] and made Israel pass through the midst of it,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[15] but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[16] to him who led his people through the wilderness,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[17] to him who smote great kings,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[18] and slew famous kings,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[19] Sihon, king of the Amorites,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[20] and Og, king of Bashan,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[21] and gave their land as a heritage,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[22] a heritage to Israel his servant,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.
[23] It is he who remembered us in our low estate,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[24] and rescued us from our foes,
for his steadfast love endures for ever;
[25] he who gives food to all flesh,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.
[26] O give thanks to the God of heaven,
for his steadfast love endures for ever.

Oh, that’s right, HE’S THE ONE WHO WROTE IT.

Could it be he likes repetition?

 

[mkw]

Was it not VEIN repetition of prayers that Jesus warned us about NOT doing?.. Just saying words with your mouth but not your heart?

I love the Blessed Virgin Mary (NOT worship btw), when I say the Hail Mary’s in the Rosary, I say them with love of Jesus and Mary. I feel these prayers in my heart. How could our Heavenly Father and our Blessed Virgin Mary not want to hear many many times how much their children love them? As a mother, I love to tell my children many many times a day how much I love them, they in turn, say the same to me. Us parents never tire of hearing the words said with love.

 

[flameburns623]

Andrew Larkoski:

I was listening to a Protestant radio station the other day and the host likened repetitive prayers to God as annoying as tapping a nail (over and over again). He thought God gets annoyed. I was appalled. This was obviously an anti-Catholic statement. I have heard this before.

Question to Protestants: if God is outside time, then if we pray the same prayer every night (like asking to protect our parents) but only once a night, aren’t we annoying God? He recognizes that we prayed once, why pray again?

Also, I believe it was Jesus Christ (God) who prayed to the Father thrice in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He is “in the Father, and the Father in me”, wouldn’t He get annoyed with Himself? Just saying.

I think I’ll go pray a rosary.

For many Evangelicals (not all, nor the majority, but ‘many’), it is wicked to EVER ‘say a prayer’–that is to attempt to pray words written down in advance. Prayers should-in this view–always be extemporaneous and spontaneous. Prayers which are written down–such as the Prayer of St. Francis–are fine as ‘meditative devices’, but should not be addressed to God as one’s own prayer–He would neither hear nor answer such a prayer. The Lord’s Prayer is seen as a model prayer–to attempt to ‘pray’ it is futile and offensive to God, in this view. Fortunately, some popular Evangelical writers have been encouraging the practice of ‘praying scripture’–part and parcel, I think, of a desire to return to a more liturgical form of worship.

We are advised by Christ to ‘knock and keep knocking’ and so the question about making the same requests would be in keeping with Christ’s own command and not a sin. The emphasis is upon prayer as an extemporaneous act: aparently, in this view, God only lends His ear to spontaneity.

 

[jimmy]

Andrew Larkoski:

I was listening to a Protestant radio station the other day and the host likened repetitive prayers to God as annoying as tapping a nail (over and over again). He thought God gets annoyed. I was appalled. This was obviously an anti-Catholic statement. I have heard this before.

Question to Protestants: if God is outside time, then if we pray the same prayer every night (like asking to protect our parents) but only once a night, aren’t we annoying God? He recognizes that we prayed once, why pray again?

Also, I believe it was Jesus Christ (God) who prayed to the Father thrice in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He is “in the Father, and the Father in me”, wouldn’t He get annoyed with Himself? Just saying.

I think I’ll go pray a rosary.

Wow, God gets annoyed by our prayers? It sounds like God is not very loving according to those people. God teaches patience and loving your neighbor as yourself. I think God loves everyone of our prayers as long as they are sincere. God will never get impatient or annoyed with us because he loves us.

 

[jimmy]

flameburns623:

For many Evangelicals (not all, nor the majority, but ‘many’), it is wicked to EVER ‘say a prayer’–that is to attempt to pray words written down in advance. Prayers should-in this view–always be extemporaneous and spontaneous. Prayers which are written down–such as the Prayer of St. Francis–are fine as ‘meditative devices’, but should not be addressed to God as one’s own prayer–He would neither hear nor answer such a prayer. The Lord’s Prayer is seen as a model prayer–to attempt to ‘pray’ it is futile and offensive to God, in this view. Fortunately, some popular Evangelical writers have been encouraging the practice of ‘praying scripture’–part and parcel, I think, of a desire to return to a more liturgical form of worship.

We are advised by Christ to ‘knock and keep knocking’ and so the question about making the same requests would be in keeping with Christ’s own command and not a sin. The emphasis is upon prayer as an extemporaneous act: aparently, in this view, God only lends His ear to spontaneity.

Evangelicals thiink that the Lords Prayer is offensive to God? Jesus specifically said, “This is the way to pray”.

 

[Annunciata]

Andrew Larkoski:

I was listening to a Protestant radio station the other day and the host likened repetitive prayers to God as annoying as tapping a nail (over and over again). He thought God gets annoyed. I was appalled. This was obviously an anti-Catholic statement. I have heard this before.

Question to Protestants: if God is outside time, then if we pray the same prayer every night (like asking to protect our parents) but only once a night, aren’t we annoying God? He recognizes that we prayed once, why pray again?

Also, I believe it was Jesus Christ (God) who prayed to the Father thrice in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He is “in the Father, and the Father in me”, wouldn’t He get annoyed with Himself? Just saying.

I think I’ll go pray a rosary.

Good One!
When you pray the Rosary you are praying the Scriptures…Mary always points to Jesus. We can never meditate on God’s inspired word to much! God Bless, Annunciata

 

[flameburns623]

jimmy:

Evangelicals thiink that the Lords Prayer is offensive to God? Jesus specifically said, “This is the way to pray”.

The Lord’s Prayer is a model for prayer, in this view. It was a prayer when Jesus prayed it (if in fact He did pray it: it may simply have been a teaching device). It has never been a prayer again. In this view. Which is NOT the universal view of all Evangelicals but has been the view of a limited, sectarian few–more properly described as ‘fundamentalists’ and not as Evangelicals. And it is not so much that the prayer is ‘offensive to God’ as that it is not a prayer at all: it is a recitiation of someone else’s prayer.

Please note that I am Anglican. I pray from a prayer book. This is NOT my view but is the view of those who reject any form of ‘set’ prayers.

 

[Checkmate]

I love this one! Think about it for a little while…notwithstanding saying “so be it” (Amen) 61 times during a “traditional” 5-decade Rosary (without the Fatima prayer, etc.), that would probably drive God crazy (tap-tap-tap) Oy!

Let’s go to spontaneous prayers. I have a dictionary, Webster’s New World Dictionary. Second College Edition. Copyright 1968. This dictionary has about 50 entries per page, and 1,656 pages. This means there are about 82,800 words: from “A” to “zymurgy.”

If we did use “zymurgy” in our prayers, among others, that would mean that the portential (statistical) duplicate words used by just Catholics would amount to 20,531 duplications if each Catholic prayed “1” different word. Get it?

Chances are good, however, that we need the word God, Lord, Christ, Jesus, Amen, Thanks, Bless, Mary, etc. in the various prayers throughout the day. I pray that God’s tolerance to nail-taps exceeds the moral decay pre-Noah!

Pax Christi vobiscum - there I go again!

Checkmate!

 

[jimmy]

flameburns623:

The Lord’s Prayer is a model for prayer, in this view. It was a prayer when Jesus prayed it (if in fact He did pray it: it may simply have been a teaching device). It has never been a prayer again. In this view. Which is NOT the universal view of all Evangelicals but has been the view of a limited, sectarian few–more properly described as ‘fundamentalists’ and not as Evangelicals. And it is not so much that the prayer is ‘offensive to God’ as that it is not a prayer at all: it is a recitiation of someone else’s prayer.

Please note that I am Anglican. I pray from a prayer book. This is NOT my view but is the view of those who reject any form of ‘set’ prayers.

Where do they get there idea though that it is not a prayer to say the our Father?

I am just curious. What do the Anglicans think of prayers to Mary and the Saints?

 

[flameburns623]

jimmy:

Where do they get there idea though that it is not a prayer to say the our Father?

I can’t cite any specific authority for what I’ve written in this thread. I am communicating perceptions and attitudes more than any specific doctrine or teaching of any denomination. I can only point to the extreme antipathy towards even the sort of language that speaks of ‘saying a prayer’ rather than simply ‘praying’. I have heard radio preachers declaim rather loudly against ever ‘reciting’ the Lord’s Prayer. The argument seems to be pretty much as I rendered it above: prayer, by it’s nature, must be extemporaneous to be genuine. On the other hand, these are the same kinds of Protestants who pray publicly using all sorts of catch-phrases and cliches.

You’ll recall the line in Hucklebery Finn, where his foster-mother was pressuring him to give up smoking tobacco: “Of course, the Widow Jones used snuff; but that was alright, because she done it”.

The problem seems to be that no one has ever really defined what kinds of ‘vain repetions’ the ‘heathens’ were engaging in, which ‘by their much speaking’ they hoped to be heard. (cf Mathew 6:7, the popular proof-text agains the Rosary).

jimmy:

I am just curious. What do the Anglicans think of prayers to Mary and the Saints?

Which ones? High-church Anglicans stress their affinity to Anglo-Catholicism and would be virtually indistinguishable from rather conservative Roman Catholics–particularly Roman Catholics using an English translation of the Tridentine Rite, since most Anglo-Catholics prefer the 1928 or some earlier version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many Anglo-Catholics pray the Rosary much the same way as Roman Catholics. Typically, an Episcopalian Rosary may add the Doxology to the Our Father ("For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, Forever and Ever), but may drop the second half of the Hail Mary (“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”), simply in the interest of peaceableness. (Modifications typically are also made to the Glorious Mysteries, since the Assumption of Mary and Coronation of Mary are also subjects of controversy).

Low-church Anglicans emphasize their roots as a Protestant denomination, although the Book of Common Prayer does not specifically preclude the idea that those in Heaven can pray for us upon Earth, nor that we cannot ask that they pray on our behalf. Typically such things are played down in public worship and treated as personal or private devotions.

Most of my experence with Anglicanism is in conservative, schismatic Anglican groups. I don’t know what the liberals in the Episcopal Church, USA (ECUSA) do. My sense is that in ECUSA they sometimes sacrifice babies to the Madona while dancing skyclad. :bigyikes:But as I say I’ve only attended one ECUSA service, years ago. Typically, where you find three Episcopalians you’ll find four opinions. And where you find four Episcopalians, you’ll often find a Fifth. Usually named Jack Daniels. And of course I’m being humorous .

 

[jimmy]

flameburns623:

I can’t cite any specific authority for what I’ve written in this thread. I am communicating perceptions and attitudes more than any specific doctrine or teaching of any denomination. I can only point to the extreme antipathy towards even the sort of language that speaks of ‘saying a prayer’ rather than simply ‘praying’. I have heard radio preachers declaim rather loudly against ever ‘reciting’ the Lord’s Prayer. The argument seems to be pretty much as I rendered it above: prayer, by it’s nature, must be extemporaneous to be genuine. On the other hand, these are the same kinds of Protestants who pray publicly using all sorts of catch-phrases and cliches.

You’ll recall the line in Hucklebery Finn, where his foster-mother was pressuring him to give up smoking tobacco: “Of course, the Widow Jones used snuff; but that was alright, because she done it”.

The problem seems to be that no one has ever really defined what kinds of ‘vain repetions’ the ‘heathens’ were engaging in, which ‘by their much speaking’ they hoped to be heard. (cf Mathew 6:7, the popular proof-text agains the Rosary).

Thankyou, it does not seem like they have much proof to back themselves up.

flameburns623:

Which ones? High-church Anglicans stress their affinity to Anglo-Catholicism and would be virtually indistinguishable from rather conservative Roman Catholics–particularly Roman Catholics using an English translation of the Tridentine Rite, since most Anglo-Catholics prefer the 1928 or some earlier version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many Anglo-Catholics pray the Rosary much the same way as Roman Catholics. Typically, an Episcopalian Rosary may add the Doxology to the Our Father ("For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, Forever and Ever), but may drop the second half of the Hail Mary (“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”), simply in the interest of peaceableness. (Modifications typically are also made to the Glorious Mysteries, since the Assumption of Mary and Coronation of Mary are also subjects of controversy).

Low-church Anglicans emphasize their roots as a Protestant denomination, although the Book of Common Prayer does not specifically preclude the idea that those in Heaven can pray for us upon Earth, nor that we cannot ask that they pray on our behalf. Typically such things are played down in public worship and treated as personal or private devotions.

Thankyou for the info. So the High Anglicans are basically Catholic and the Low are protestant in belief. I hear that the Anglican church may be splitting into two churches. Is this the way they are spliting, into the low and high Anglican?

flameburns623:

Most of my experence with Anglicanism is in conservative, schismatic Anglican groups. I don’t know what the liberals in the Episcopal Church, USA (ECUSA) do. My sense is that in ECUSA they sometimes sacrifice babies to the Madona while dancing skyclad. :bigyikes:But as I say I’ve only attended one ECUSA service, years ago. Typically, where you find three Episcopalians you’ll find four opinions. And where you find four Episcopalians, you’ll often find a Fifth. Usually named Jack Daniels. And of course I’m being humorous .

hahaha.

 

[flameburns623]

jimmy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameburns623
*Which ones? High-church Anglicans stress their affinity to Anglo-Catholicism and would be virtually indistinguishable from rather conservative Roman Catholics–particularly Roman Catholics using an English translation of the Tridentine Rite, since most Anglo-Catholics prefer the 1928 or some earlier version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many Anglo-Catholics pray the Rosary much the same way as Roman Catholics. Typically, an Episcopalian Rosary may add the Doxology to the Our Father ("For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, Forever and Ever), but may drop the second half of the Hail Mary (“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”), simply in the interest of peaceableness. (Modifications typically are also made to the Glorious Mysteries, since the Assumption of Mary and Coronation of Mary are also subjects of controversy).

Low-church Anglicans emphasize their roots as a Protestant denomination, although the Book of Common Prayer does not specifically preclude the idea that those in Heaven can pray for us upon Earth, nor that we cannot ask that they pray on our behalf. Typically such things are played down in public worship and treated as personal or private devotions. *

Thankyou for the info. So the High Anglicans are basically Catholic and the Low are protestant in belief. I hear that the Anglican church may be splitting into two churches. Is this the way they are spliting, into the low and high Anglican?

No. The Anglican Church has always been rather proud of it’s ‘broad church’ appeal. We have a Book of Common Prayer, which includes our Articles of Faith around which is organized an Episcopally-led fellowship. The Epscopies are basically national in scope, but the Archbishop of Canturbury has a ‘primacy of honor’–the same sort of honor we tend to accord the Bishop of Rome and other Orthodox patriarchies and eparchies. The splits are between liberalism and the moderates and conservatives. Specifically the issues of homosexual ordination and ordination of women. Some other issues crop up often. Prayerbooks through the 1928 BCP had a clear lineage to the 1662 BCP. In the late 1960’s there was cal within Episcopalianism, as there had been in the Roman Catholic church a decade earlier, for ‘liturgical renewal’.

Anglicanism began splitting over the 1979 prayerbook which–like the Novus Ordo Mass–is believed by many to be sufficiently ambiguous that it permits understandings of God and of the Church which are heretical. Even before the '79 prayerbook, the Episcopal leadership of the USA, Canada, and of Canturbury, declined to take strong action against assorted wild theological speculations: Bishop James Pike, for example, became rather notorious for his pursuit of ghosts after his son was tragically killed in young adulthood. About 10 years after the 79 prayerbook revision, the Anglicans began ordaining women illicitly. Instead of defrocking the Bishops who participated in this farce, the national organizations of the USA and elsewhere basically ratified the ordinations after the fact. Same thing happened about ten years after that when they ordained a ‘homosexual-but-celibate’ person who was living with his former lover; and again when they ordained V. Gene Robinson, the openly-gay and active homosexual to be an Episcopal bishop in 2003.

 

[flameburns623]

The African and other Third-world branches of Episcopalianism have been the loudest in protesting this and have created several ‘missions’ in the USA and elsewhere, with which some congregations have affiliated. Unfortunately, ECUSA technically owns the church buildings and other property used by it’s associated churches, and some members have family links to these churches going back generations. So even if two hundred members of an ECUSA congregation walk out, leaving ten behind, the ten get to keep the property while the two hundred end up having to rent space in storefronts or school gymnasiums. There is talk that losses have been far more dramatic than ECUSA and Canturbury want to acknowledge, and it looks as if Canturbury may actually take some sort of action. Many are waiting to see, NOT with a great deal of confidence: the current Archbishop of Canturbury is rather explicitly liberal and has written in favor of homosexuality in the past. In any case, his position of ‘honor’ only suggests that strong action on his part may not be effective in turning back the tide.

There have been some splits in the high-church/low-church debate, but they never grew large or serious. The Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) split partly over this matter and was the one split of any significant size which looked in the 1920’s as though it might grow as large or larger than the ECUSA. The REC has fallen on hard times and seems unable to capitalize upon the current uproar in ECUSA–it’s actually losing members and priests to Rome or the Eastern Orthodox at about the same rate as ECUSA, as a percentage of membership. They’ve formed an intercommunion agreement with a high-church association (Anglican Mission in America), but AMiA seems to be the chief beneficiary of that partnership thus far.

 

[Exporter]

I have two comments;
" I have heard radio preachers declaim rather loudly against ever ‘reciting’ the Lord’s Prayer. The argument seems to be pretty much as I rendered it above: prayer, by it’s nature, must be extemporaneous to be genuine. On the other hand, these are the same kinds of Protestants who pray publicly using all sorts of catch-phrases and cliches." THE ANGLICAN WROTE THIS.

1. Yes, that’s true. I sometimes listen to preachers Sat. nite on shortwave radio. Their prayers almost always are the same. And the Blessing is the same,“May the Lord God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob smile his face upon you…” They pray the same stuff too.
   2.The Baptists have certain words uttered “extemporaneously” over and over. They like to say ,“Oh Lord Jesus if you will JUST…”
   I have had them tell me that Catholics pray like the Tibetans.:tiphat: