Non-Catholics: Does your pastor preach this: Where the Scriptures are Silent, We Should Be Silent"?

[PRmerger]

I agree with all of this. Using your example about weddings, a person who doesn’t care at all about Christianity would see nothing wrong with what you describe, but a person who has bothered to learn what the Bible and church tradition have to say about it sees that it is unacceptable. Even if that person had been taught in a church all of his or her life that second marriages were perfectly acceptable, that man or woman could challenge and overcome such erroneous teaching if he or she was willing to take personal responsibility to find out whether their church’s teachings were correct.

Red, if you take a look at the numerous threads here on the CAFs regarding divorce and re-marriage, you will find that there are a multitude of Christians who use Scripture–the very same Bible you and I use–to declare that God allows divorce and re-marriage. Most will argue that God doesn’t really like it, but that He tolerates it.

Thus, to say that all we have to do is learn what the Bible and church tradition (their individual churches I presume you to mean) says and we’ll come to a common truth has not borne out in reality.

I feel as you think I’m arguing that I shouldn’t be bound by any teaching that inconveniences me or seems hard to accept at first glance. This isn’t my position at all.

Again, all I challenge you (and all of use) to do is to contemplate whether we’re in a church of our own beliefs or a church that has conformed itself to Christ’s revelation. And if we’re in a church that agrees with everything we believe, then we’ve most likely created a church in our own image.

My position is that I should not be told that I must believe certain teachings even if I am not able to reach the conclusion that they are correct or truly apostolic. I don’t want another human being to tell me "You have come to believe that this is false, but I say that it is true.

This is, in fact, what you have done though, Red, if you believe that, say, the Gospel of Mark is inspired. Mark is telling you something and you believe it based on his testimony, right?

Any remaining reasons you have for believing that it is false are overruled by the simple fact that I’m the one saying it’s true."

I hope you are not under the misapprehension that this is part of the Catholic Church’s teaching!

I’m going to stop making new posts about this now, read what people say in response, and drop the matter. I can promise that I’m going to do a lot of thinking, praying and studying about some of the excellent points that have brought up. I do enjoy being free to reach my own conclusions, learn new things that challenge those conclusions, and modify my beliefs accordingly.

:tiphat:

My suggestion is to start with Fides et Ratio, in the link that I provided above.

 

[Newsy]

I agree with all of this. Using your example about weddings, a person who doesn’t care at all about Christianity would see nothing wrong with what you describe, but a person who has bothered to learn what the Bible and church tradition have to say about it sees that it is unacceptable. Even if that person had been taught in a church all of his or her life that second marriages were perfectly acceptable, that man or woman could challenge and overcome such erroneous teaching if he or she was willing to take personal responsibility to find out whether their church’s teachings were correct.

This is what brings some of us to the Catholic Church! I was a member in a large, liberal, mainstream protestant church, I recognized their teachings were problematic. God led me on a journey for the truth, not part of the truth, all of it. We can look at a variety of issues such as gay marriage, abortion, second marriages, birth control, etc. and only one Church has stayed with the historical and Biblical teaching.

BTW, the Church does not teach that “I said so, stop asking questions” attitude. The Church allows plenty of personal interpretation within the context of her teaching. Think of it like a set of guardrails to prevent us from falling into heresy. There is no need to rehash problems that have already been solved. The Church encourages study, if you schedule a little time with a priest they can help you understand the Church Teaching. Prayer is the most helpful tool, these forums are valuable tools also.

 

[Genovefa]

The “Protestant” churches that say these things about where the Bible is silent we should be silent are not mainline Protestant churches. I have personally experience with this.

They would actually argue that they are the one true church that was in existence since the time of Christ. When I argued that the Catholic church was actually the only church for a great number of years and they are the only ones who can really claim that, the response was “Well, we went underground during that time”

These churches are more like cults than real Protestant churches. Many of them also deny the trinity and do not celebrate Christmas and Easter outside of the secular observances.

But most Protestant churches would disagree. For instance, the Methodist church believes that God speaks through Scripture, Tradition (not just their tradition BTW), and Private Revelation. I learned this as an adult in my “Book of Discipline Class” which is loosely the Catechism for Methodists. I would imagine Episcopalian is very similar. Some Protestant churches, like Baptist, however are not “apostolic” and are “congregational” instead. Which loosely means that they have a great degree of say what they believe as a congregation and are not necessarily governed by a church at large.

 

[Genovefa]

The “Protestant” churches that say these things about where the Bible is silent we should be silent are not mainline Protestant churches. I have personally experience with this.

They would actually argue that they are the one true church that was in existence since the time of Christ. When I argued that the Catholic church was actually the only church for a great number of years and they are the only ones who can really claim that, the response was “Well, we went underground during that time”

These churches are more like cults than real Protestant churches. Many of them also deny the trinity and do not celebrate Christmas and Easter outside of the secular observances.

But most Protestant churches would disagree. For instance, the Methodist church (not one of these churches) believes that God speaks through Scripture, Tradition (not just their tradition), and Personal Experience. I learned this as an adult in my “Book of Discipline Class” which is loosely the Catechism for Methodists. I would imagine Episcopalian is very similar. Some Protestant churches, like Baptist, however are not “apostolic” and are “congregational” instead. Which loosely means that they have a great degree of say what they believe as a congregation and are not necessarily governed by a church at large.

 

[PRmerger]

The “Protestant” churches that say these things about where the Bible is silent we should be silent are not mainline Protestant churches. I have personally experience with this.

Would you consider the Church of Christ to be “not mainline”?

It is my understanding that this paradigm of being silent where the Bible is silent is a paradigm of the CofC churches.

 

[Genovefa]

Would you consider the Church of Christ to be “not mainline”?

It is my understanding that this paradigm of being silent where the Bible is silent is a paradigm of the CofC churches.

It is NOT mainline. My husband grew up in this church. They do not accept the trinity. My FIL was told that he could not talk to his own son after the son was disfellowshipped for not attending.

Do you know the hymn “Holy Holy Holy”? The ending words are “blessed trinity”. They have some other way to end the song, since they can’t technically believe in the trinity.

My in-laws will not go to a CoC that has “Sunday school”. They say it is a “bad one” since Sunday school is not described in the Bible.

They celebrate Easter and Christmas as secular holidays but do not see them as religious or connected to Christ in any way. They argue that the Bible does not specify when these events happen. They ignore the fact that the Bible is very clear about when Easter is.

I am a lifelong Methodist, but am inquiring into becoming Catholic. I assure you that the mainline Protestant churches do not have these beliefs–not even Baptists. In fact, I know of at least a few Baptist churches that teach the CofC is a cult. One of the deciding factors is belief in the trinity. Both Catholics and mainline Protestants accept the Apostles Creed, but CofC does not. Stay far away and please do not think that all Protestants are like this.

 

[PRmerger]

It is NOT mainline. My husband grew up in this church. They do not accept the trinity. My FIL was told that he could not talk to his own son after the son was disfellowshipped for not attending.

Do you know the hymn “Holy Holy Holy”? The ending words are “blessed trinity”. They have some other way to end the song, since they can’t technically believe in the trinity.

My in-laws will not go to a CoC that has “Sunday school”. They say it is a “bad one” since Sunday school is not described in the Bible.

They celebrate Easter and Christmas as secular holidays but do not see them as religious or connected to Christ in any way. They argue that the Bible does not specify when these events happen. They ignore the fact that the Bible is very clear about when Easter is.

I am a lifelong Methodist, but am inquiring into becoming Catholic. I assure you that the mainline Protestant churches do not have these beliefs–not even Baptists. In fact, I know of at least a few Baptist churches that teach the CofC is a cult. One of the deciding factors is belief in the trinity. Both Catholics and mainline Protestants accept the Apostles Creed, but CofC does not. Stay far away and please do not think that all Protestants are like this.

Oh, I never try to think of Protestants as one behemoth. In fact, I often make the point of saying that there is no such thing as an average Protestant because, truly, they are more disparate than snowflakes (slight hyperbole here, but trying to make a point. )

At any rate, I was not aware that CofC were not mainline Protestants and that the dividing line was belief in the Trinity.

Any other non-Catholic Christians have a different POV about this?

 

[BrianH]

Church of Christ are not mainline. That is true. That title is reserved for the mainline churches (Presbyterian,Methodist, Episcopal, etc)
They do believe in the Trinity though. I think you must be thinking of a group outside of the Church of Christ in the United States.
They are part of the restoration movement.

 

[BrianH]

The “Protestant” churches that say these things about where the Bible is silent we should be silent are not mainline Protestant churches. I have personally experience with this.

They would actually argue that they are the one true church that was in existence since the time of Christ. When I argued that the Catholic church was actually the only church for a great number of years and they are the only ones who can really claim that, the response was “Well, we went underground during that time”

These churches are more like cults than real Protestant churches. Many of them also deny the trinity and do not celebrate Christmas and Easter outside of the secular observances.

But most Protestant churches would disagree. For instance, the Methodist church believes that God speaks through Scripture, Tradition (not just their tradition BTW), and Private Revelation. I learned this as an adult in my “Book of Discipline Class” which is loosely the Catechism for Methodists. I would imagine Episcopalian is very similar. Some Protestant churches, like Baptist, however are not “apostolic” and are “congregational” instead. Which loosely means that they have a great degree of say what they believe as a congregation and are not necessarily governed by a church at large.

What we believe

Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual’s understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service.

 

[Genovefa]

Church of Christ are not mainline. That is true. That title is reserved for the mainline churches (Presbyterian,Methodist, Episcopal, etc)
They do believe in the Trinity though. I think you must be thinking of a group outside of the Church of Christ in the United States.
They are part of the restoration movement.

There is a CoC that is different, more like a denomination. These would probably not agree with statement: “where the Bible is silent we should be silent.”

I have no experience with them, but I do with the CoC that does not believe in the trinity and fits the description in my previous post.

 

[Genovefa]

What we believe

Thanks for adding the details…I was just summarizing. You are exactly right. I didn’t mean to imply that Methodists held tradition and experience equal with Scripture. I was just explaining that they do not discount it–in response to the original post.

 

[andrewstx]

There is a CoC that is different, more like a denomination. These would probably not agree with statement: “where the Bible is silent we should be silent.”

I have no experience with them, but I do with the CoC that does not believe in the trinity and fits the description in my previous post.

Those would be the Independent Christian Churches/churches of Christ. They are the third branch of the “Restoration movement”.

The original was the Disciples of Christ.

The first schism in campbell land gave birth to the (so called) churches of Christ. The split happened when ultra conservative Disciples began objecting to missionary societies, calling the minister “reverend”, installing organs in thier churches and organising beyond the local congregation.

The split was largely along the Mason/Dixon line with the southerners going on to break away as the churches of Christ. The official date for the divide was 1906.

The ICCs/csofChrist split in the 1940s.

They are more conservative than the Disciples and less than the churches of Christ. They do use musical instruments in their churches.

My Mother was a member of an Independent Christian church when she died, and the funeral was awful, she was cremated so there was only a picture of her. Of course no prayers were said for her soul, and the music consisted only of CDs of country music with Christian words.

They are famous for their slogans: No name but the divine. No book but the bible. No creed but Christ.

There are others but I have forgotten

They claim their practices are based solely on the bible, but I get the impression they look at Catholic beliefs and practices and then deliberatively do the opposite.

 

[fbl9]

snip…
They claim their practices are based solely on the bible, but I get the impression they look at Catholic beliefs and practices and then deliberatively do the opposite.

I think there are more than just this group that follows this line of “thinking”

 

[Genovefa]

The first schism in campbell land gave birth to the (so called) churches of Christ. The split happened when ultra conservative Disciples began objecting to missionary societies, calling the minister “reverend”, installing organs in thier churches and organising beyond the local congregation.

.

Yes, the one above is the one that I am familiar with.

I sometimes forget and call their preacher a “pastor” and get a lot of dirty looks. They are only allowed to be called “preachers”. My husband left this church as a teenager and never looked back.

They do not consider the Disciples of Christ, United Church of Christ, or ICC to be actual churches of Christ. My MIL has a book of approved churches that she can attend because one can’t tell by the title alone. Some “Churches of Christ” do not even qualify.

It makes me crazy.

 

[Genovefa]

I think there are more than just this group that follows this line of “thinking”

The Church of Christ I am referring to pretty much tries to do the opposite of everybody, not just Catholics.

They are sure to call John the Baptist, John the “Baptizer” for example. My in-laws have a volume of texts, one for each Christian denomination with detailed arguments as to why they are all wrong. One can go into the “lobby” of their churches and pick up tracts explaining what is wrong with Methodists, Baptists, etc. They have an argument against everybody and call it “apologetics”.

 

[ltwin]

Would you consider the Church of Christ to be “not mainline”?

It is my understanding that this paradigm of being silent where the Bible is silent is a paradigm of the CofC churches.

You might be confusing the Churches of Christ with the United Church of Christ. The United Church of Christ is a mainline denomination in the Reformed tradition.

 

[andrewstx]

Yes, the one above is the one that I am familiar with.

I sometimes forget and call their preacher a “pastor” and get a lot of dirty looks. They are only allowed to be called “preachers”. My husband left this church as a teenager and never looked back.

They do not consider the Disciples of Christ, United Church of Christ, or ICC to be actual churches of Christ. My MIL has a book of approved churches that she can attend because one can’t tell by the title alone. Some “Churches of Christ” do not even qualify.

It makes me crazy.

There are several related groups that use the name “church of Christ”, frequently they refuse “fellowship” and the name Christian to each other.

1 cofC that calls itself mainstream, they have sunday school and support church related institutions

2 csofC that do not have sunday school

3 csofC that pass one glass of grape juice amoung the pews during the Lord’s supper.

4 csofC that refuse to support chruch related institutions (universities, regtirement centers orphanages).

Their are probably dozens of different mixture between the groups, all denieing the name Christian to the others.

When I was small and growing up in the campbellites we drove past a cofC just a block from our house across town to a different cofC.

Once I asked why we just didn’t walk to the nearby cofC I was told “they aren’t REAL Christians”.