Non-Catholics: How do you know that the words of Jesus are true?

[benhur]

Near Syracuse.

Tabor makes a very convincing case that the Pauline Christianity was not in accord with the Messianic Judaic Christianity of James, brother of Jesus, Simon Cephas (Peter) and the other Apostles who had followed Jesus as a man. I need to do more reading before deciding to agree with his thesis - I’m just saying now that he makes a very compelling argument.

Regarding the hot and cold bit, are you saying that God would have more respect for an atheist who flat out rejected the idea of a god than an agnostic making an effort to live by JudeoChristian behavior in their interaction with others?

Yep, that is what I call upstate also.

Of course Paul might be considered different in that he was an apostle to the gentiles primarily , where the others were not (Yet all ministered to the world, gentiles included). I think a Messianic Jew, that is a Christian Jew today would be a better person to talk to, but I would think their religious "culture’’ and practices would be different than say a “gentile” Christian, but still centered around a real personal encounter with Christ. No problem.Doctrinally would be alike for the most part I would think.

The hor cold thing has nothing to do with respect or love from God, for He sends the sunshine and rain on both the righteous and unrighteous. It is more about our affection and relation to His love and calling. It is about how effectual (life changing) we allow Him to be in us…

The scripture is found in Rev.3:15 where lukewarmness is almost useless. The Lord writes a letter to the laodicea church saying their hearts and works were lukewarm. There was a stream/river near the city that started up high in the mountains . At it’s source the water was cold, refreshingly cold, but by the time the stream reached the city, it was lukewarm and was undrinkable. You would gag on it. The message was clear to the Laodiceans. Get back to their source, Christ himself, and kind of get on ‘fire’ for him again.

As far as an agnostic and an atheist, they are in the same boat (unsaved, unregenerated, spiritually dead in trespasses and sins). The atheist is "cold’’ spiritually and knows it. The agnostic may be lukewarm and not feel the urgency for any change for he certainly feels better than the atheist. But if you can convince the atheist he is cold he might get "hot’ for Christ . It may be harder to prod the comfortable lukewarm one for the need to get “hot”.
A little bit like when Christ said the whores and drunkards(who know they are sinners) will enter the kingdom before the self righteous Pharisees.

Having said all that, some may apply to you and some may not .I was speaking generally and appreciate you sharing your position. I still would recommend ceasing from your efforts to live Judeo Christian life and first seek Him out about this possible new birth in Him. Christianity is first and foremost a relationship, then comes the living out.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

This whole discussion, of the visible Church in the first centuries after the Apostles being a necessary institution whom God used to provide us with an inerrant account of the Revelation of His Son, is one that can and should lead believing Christians who have contempt for the institutional Church, to embrace the Church and have peace at heart knowing we will be serving God when we give consent and submission to the Church.

What we Catholics should know and be aware of, is that this is not some sort of proof that the Catholic Church is this Church, and all that she professes and practices, is upholding all that our Father wills. Nor that we should suggest that without the Church, these Words in the Scriptures would NOT move and convict people to conversion. There will not be such proofs and the conviction that the Gospel of Scripture is True is always the Work of the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, Scripture has been established for the World to see and the Church to cherish. We can look back in history and learn about the process of the making of the Bible some. But most of us accept from the outlet, that the Bible is God’s written word. We believe the Church’s part in affirming and professing what constitutes Sacred Scripture is not unimportant or relied on an authority that is subject to each believer’s conscience. The Lord is in, behind and over the Church in a real way. This takes faith and discernment by us to see. It takes our whole mind, body and soul.

 

[Contarini]

This whole discussion, of the visible Church in the first centuries after the Apostles being a necessary institution whom God used to provide us with an inerrant account of the Revelation of His Son, is one that can and should lead believing Christians who have contempt for the institutional Church, to embrace the Church and have peace at heart knowing we will be serving God when we give consent and submission to the Church.

What we Catholics should know and be aware of, is that this is not some sort of proof that the Catholic Church is this Church, and all that she professes and practices, is upholding all that our Father wills. Nor that we should suggest that without the Church, these Words in the Scriptures would NOT move and convict people to conversion. There will not be such proofs and the conviction that the Gospel of Scripture is True is always the Work of the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, Scripture has been established for the World to see and the Church to cherish. We can look back in history and learn about the process of the making of the Bible some. But most of us accept from the outlet, that the Bible is God’s written word. We believe the Church’s part in affirming and professing what constitutes Sacred Scripture is not unimportant or relied on an authority that is subject to each believer’s conscience. The Lord is in, behind and over the Church in a real way. This takes faith and discernment by us to see. It takes our whole mind, body and soul.

This is really well put!

My own difficulty is that I see the Lord in, behind, and over Protestant communities too, in spite of their very real defects. Indeed, as I think we would all agree, there are certain ways in which some Protestant communities open themselves better to the Spirit more than some Catholic communities. That isn’t to say that Protestants are better, or even to argue for their equality. It’s just to say that on the ground things look messy, and it looks very much as if the Spirit is at work, in different ways, in all communities.

So in practice, how does someone like me live in a way that acknowledges both the need to be in union with Rome and embrace the fullness of the Catholic Faith and the very real strengths of Protestant communities (and even the ways in which some Protestant communities may in some ways be listening better to the Holy Spirit than the Catholics who are found in that particular time and place).

Edwin

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This is really well put!

My own difficulty is that I see the Lord in, behind, and over Protestant communities too, in spite of their very real defects. Indeed, as I think we would all agree, there are certain ways in which some Protestant communities open themselves better to the Spirit more than some Catholic communities. That isn’t to say that Protestants are better, or even to argue for their equality. It’s just to say that on the ground things look messy, and it looks very much as if the Spirit is at work, in different ways, in all communities.

So in practice, how does someone like me live in a way that acknowledges both the need to be in union with Rome and embrace the fullness of the Catholic Faith and the very real strengths of Protestant communities (and even the ways in which some Protestant communities may in some ways be listening better to the Holy Spirit than the Catholics who are found in that particular time and place).

Edwin

I think many Protestant communities are composed of good, sincere people who genuinely love God. I have much respect for the individuals who make up those communities.

However, I would say that they do not open themselves to the Holy Spirit better than any Catholic community because they do not have the sacraments that Christ established and passed on to his Church. Today, God the Father no longer speaks to us. Today, God the Son no longer walks the earth as a flesh-and-blood person. However, the Risen Christ is present and available to all in good standing in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. It is how we encounter God in a very real and personal way today. It is one way we grow in love and trust with him.

I will say that some Protestant communities seem to exhibit more fellowship and be more welcoming of their neighbors than some Catholic communities are. (I think many Catholic communities need to work on that.) But that is not reception of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thorolfr]

However, the Risen Christ is present and available to all in good standing in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. It is how we encounter God in a very real and personal way today. It is one way we grow in love and trust with him.

We Lutherans believe that Jesus is present and available to us in our churches as well in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (we believe in the Real Presence). How can you prove that Jesus is only present in the Eucharist in your churches but not in the Eucharist in ours?

 

[Contarini]

I will say that some Protestant communities seem to exhibit more fellowship and be more welcoming of their neighbors than some Catholic communities are. (I think many Catholic communities need to work on that.) But that is not reception of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Lily, that last paragraph I think sums up very nicely what my difficulty is, fundamentally.

I don’t believe that these qualities are “not reception of Christ and the Holy Spirit.”

You want to reduce the presence of the Holy Spirit to the sacramental.

When a Protestant congregation is the kind of place where people can stand up and share about their addictions or their children’s recent release from prison and know that they will be welcomed and prayed for, that’s the work of the Holy Spirit.

And the fact that most Catholic congregations are not those kinds of places says something about ways in which Catholic communities, as communities, are not open to the Holy Spirit.

And you can have the most reverent “Extraordinary Form” Mass, with angelic choirs singing Gregorian Chant, and it won’t change that.

Edwin

 

[spedteacherita]

I think many Protestant communities are composed of good, sincere people who genuinely love God. I have much respect for the individuals who make up those communities.

However, I would say that they do not open themselves to the Holy Spirit better than any Catholic community because they do not have the sacraments that Christ established and passed on to his Church. Today, God the Father no longer speaks to us. Today, God the Son no longer walks the earth as a flesh-and-blood person. However, the Risen Christ is present and available to all in good standing in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. It is how we encounter God in a very real and personal way today. It is one way we grow in love and trust with him.

I will say that some Protestant communities seem to exhibit more fellowship and be more welcoming of their neighbors than some Catholic communities are. (I think many Catholic communities need to work on that.) But that is not reception of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Hi, Lily

My question to you post is "Does the Catholic Church teach that the Holy Spirit only work through your Sacraments? Do you only equate Holy Spirit’s work limited to those sacraments? From my Protestant perspective I have seen the Holy Spirit’s work in MANY churches and they were not Catholic and it was not thru any sacraments. Granted, there are some that you walk into and you wonder if this is a place of worship but there are many more where the Spirit is so clearly at work you’re drawn in to be a part of whatever happens to be going on. There are plenty of Catholic Churches where you can see this, too…and the ministries each community of Christians are doing as well. We can not limit the work of God - He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent…We are so little compared to Him but he allows us to be part of His work.

 

[Denise1957]

Hi, Lily

My question to you post is "Does the Catholic Church teach that the Holy Spirit only work through your Sacraments? Do you only equate Holy Spirit’s work limited to those sacraments? From my Protestant perspective I have seen the Holy Spirit’s work in MANY churches and they were not Catholic and it was not thru any sacraments. Granted, there are some that you walk into and you wonder if this is a place of worship but there are many more where the Spirit is so clearly at work you’re drawn in to be a part of whatever happens to be going on. There are plenty of Catholic Churches where you can see this, too…and the ministries each community of Christians are doing as well. We can not limit the work of God - He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent…We are so little compared to Him but he allows us to be part of His work.

I know that this post is directed to Lily, but just wanted to mention that as Catholics, we are obliged to believe that since the Lutheran churches do not have apostolic succession, that this means that Holy Eucharist, for instance, is not really the body and blood of our Lord at the Lutheran mass. The Real Presence does not occur in the Eucharist in the Lutheran churches. Is it possible that the Holy Spirit could be working otherwise through the Lutheran churches? That may be possible, but I don’t think that the Catholic church can determine how much influence the Holy Spirit does have in Lutheran churches, not would she really wish to do so. That you believe absolutely that the Holy Spirit works in your church is fine. I, for one, would not expect you to give up that view.

 

[Telstar]

We Lutherans believe that Jesus is present and available to us in our churches as well in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (we believe in the Real Presence). How can you prove that Jesus is only present in the Eucharist in your churches but not in the Eucharist in ours?

The only ones that can convect the Holy Eucharist, are the men who have received Holy Orders and been Ordained into the Priesthood of the Catholic Church, which is a Sacrament that comes to the Church through direct Apostolic succession.

There really is no real way to ‘prove’ it, unless we’re willing to consider the many Eucharistic miracles that have happened throughout the history of the Catholic Church, where a Eucharistic Host has started to bleed, or has been completely transformed into human flesh and blood. Many of these occurrences have been scientifically tested, studied and documented by independent doctors (including some very baffled atheists) and laboratories, that confirm them being actual human blood, or even living heart tissue (not dead) that pulsates, which completely defies all scientific logic.

Here’s an example from a miracle in Argentina that happened in 1996, that was investigated by the Bishop at that time, who is now Pope Francis. The video is a talk given by one of the Doctors that investigated and tested the host.

I haven’t heard about any of those kinds of miracles that have ever happened to Lutheran Eucharistic hosts (or to any other non-Catholic communion). Have there ever been any that you know about?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Telstar gets the last word on this thread.
Start a new one if you want to continue.