Non-Catholics: Would you still be Christian...

[rr1213]

And if you would be honest with my post, you would admit that Christians did not have access to Bibles for hundreds of years.

The problem is that your assumption is simply not true. Sure, the bible was not canonized for a number of years, but the early Christians most certainly had the Scriptures. In addition to the Old Testament books, the letters and books that comprise the New Testament were written, primarily, by the apostles themselves. They were contemporaneous with the early church.

 

[JoeyWarren]

This ignores the fact that Jews were studying their scriptures at and before that time. So it was possible.

Only in the synagogues. Do you really believe the Jews really had personal copies of the torah in their homes? Furthermore Jews were taught to read and write at home or at the synagogues. Literacy was a reality in the Jewish life whereas it was not a reality in the Gentile life.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The problem is that your assumption is simply not true. Sure, the bible was not canonized for a number of years, but the early Christians most certainly had the Scriptures. In addition to the Old Testament books, the letters and books that comprise the New Testament were written, primarily, by the apostles themselves. They were contemporaneous with the early church.

The average run of the mill christian did not have the scriptures. The relied upon the local church to read the scriptures to them. The vast majority of non-jewish christians were not able to read and it got worse by the decade until the late 1800s when literacy was declared a right instead of a luxury.

The OP assumption is probably based on us never technologically advancing to the point we have now.

If we were still living as we were nearly 1900 years ago we would not have our personal copies of the bible.

It generally took more than a year just for one scribe or monk to copy a complete bible. This does not include producing the material to write on nor the material to write with.

Assuming that we still had the same rate of inflation during this time, each plain jane copy of the entire bible would cost nearly 100,000 dollars at least.

It took nearly 400 lambs or goats to produce enough parchment for one bible. It is labor intensive to create the parchment.

Then take into account the labor to create the ink.

Then take into account the more than one year’s labor and wages of one scribe to copy the scriptures.

nominal hourly wage for a scribe nowadays would be roughy a lot more than minimum wage. I would estimate it being at least 50/hour which would put the cost of scribing at least at 100,000.

Too much is taken for granted today.

Furthermore, only the noble born and clergy would be taught how to read and write. This class of people over the course of history has only comprised of 1% of any population.

 

[rr1213]

The average run of the mill christian did not have the scriptures. The relied upon the local church to read the scriptures to them. The vast majority of non-jewish christians were not able to read and it got worse by the decade until the late 1800s when literacy was declared a right instead of a luxury.

The OP assumption is probably based on us never technologically advancing to the point we have now.

If we were still living as we were nearly 1900 years ago we would not have our personal copies of the bible.

It generally took more than a year just for one scribe or monk to copy a complete bible. This does not include producing the material to write on nor the material to write with.

Assuming that we still had the same rate of inflation during this time, each plain jane copy of the entire bible would cost nearly 100,000 dollars at least.

It took nearly 400 lambs or goats to produce enough parchment for one bible. It is labor intensive to create the parchment.

Then take into account the labor to create the ink.

Then take into account the more than one year’s labor and wages of one scribe to copy the scriptures.

nominal hourly wage for a scribe nowadays would be roughy a lot more than minimum wage. I would estimate it being at least 50/hour which would put the cost of scribing at least at 100,000.

Too much is taken for granted today.

Furthermore, only the noble born and clergy would be taught how to read and write. This class of people over the course of history has only comprised of 1% of any population.

If you are saying that people did not have their personal copies of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, I’d agree that is likely the case. Nonetheless, the Church at Corinth and other Churches did have copies. I also think that your belief that only the clergy and noble born were literate is not accurate for ancient times. Few among the early Church were noble born, rich or important by the world’s standards…yet they could read the letters that were sent to them by the apostles.

 

[JoeyWarren]

typically protestant, read what you want that justifies your position and ignore the rest:

I also think that your belief that only the clergy and noble born were literate is not accurate for ancient times. Few among the early Church were noble born, rich or important by the world’s standards…yet they could read the letters that were sent to them by the apostles.

Now what did I write? Let us post it agian: parts hi-lighted for emphasis:

The average run of the mill christian did not have the scriptures. The relied upon the local church to read the scriptures to them. The vast majority of non-jewish christians were not able to read and **it got worse by the decade **until the late 1800s when literacy was declared a right instead of a luxury.

As time went on, the Gentiles became less and less illiterate to the point just prior to the invention of the printing press, 99 percent of the population was illiterate and poor. For all intentions and purposes, the Noble-born and the Clergy were the only ones able to read. I suggest a little history search on literacy.

If you are saying that people did not have their personal copies of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, I’d agree that is likely the case. Nonetheless, the Church at Corinth and other Churches did have copies.

The church had at least one copy yes. But we are talking about two epistles not all the writings. Did every single indididual have their own personal copy? Probably not.

I have a little test for you, if you don’t mind.

Take some plain paper without lines (such as copier paper) and commence to copy 1 Cor. with the following rules:

Write in straight lines.
Write in print, not cursive(sp?).

 

[rr1213]

typically protestant, read what you want that justifies your position and ignore the rest:

Uncharitable stereotyping. Erroneous also.

Now what did I write? Let us post it agian: parts hi-lighted for emphasis:

As time went on, the Gentiles became less and less illiterate to the point just prior to the invention of the printing press, 99 percent of the population was illiterate and poor. For all intentions and purposes, the Noble-born and the Clergy were the only ones able to read. I suggest a little history search on literacy.

Actually, you said that the literacy rate got worse by the decades until the late 1800s (centuries after the invention of the printing press by the way).I also don’t believe that your statement is historically true for those of us (Protestant mostly) in the United States, at least among the white population.
The church had at least one copy yes. But we are talking about two epistles not all the writings. Did every single indididual have their own personal copy? Probably not.

I admitted that assumption, not that it is particularly relevant.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Actually, you said that the literacy rate got worse by the decades until the late 1800s (centuries after the invention of the printing press by the way).I also don’t believe that your statement is historically true for those of us (Protestant mostly) in the United States, at least among the white population.

Like I said do some history searching on literacy, even in the USA.

look at current statistics:

According to the National Adult Literacy Survey, 42 million adult Americans can’t read; 50 million can recognize so few printed words they are limited to a 4th or 5th grade reading level; one out of every four teenagers drops out of high school, and of those who graduate, one out of every four has the equivalent or less of an eighth grade education.

Here is some info on worldwide illiteracy:

World Illiteracy Rates
The United Nations, which defines illiteracy as the inability to read and write a simple message in any language, has conducted a number of surveys on world illiteracy. In the first survey (1950, pub. 1957) at least 44% of the world’s population were found to be illiterate. A 1978 study showed the rate to have dropped to 32.5%, by 1990 illiteracy worldwide had dropped to about 27%, and by 1998 to 16%. However, a study by the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) published in 1998 predicted that the world illiteracy rate would increase in the 21st cent. because only a quarter of the world’s children were in school by the end of the 20th cent. The highest illiteracy rates were found in the less developed nations of Africa, Asia, and South America; the lowest in Australia, Japan, North Korea, and the more technologically advanced nations of Europe and North America. Using the UN definition of illiteracy, the United States and Canada have an overall illiteracy rate of about 1%. In certain disadvantaged areas, however, such as the rural South in the United States, the illiteracy rate is much higher

.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Here is a graph of worldwide illiteracy rates since 1970.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/World-Literacy-Rate-1970to2015.TC.png

 

[JoeyWarren]

In the Middle Ages, literacy rates among Jews in Europe were much higher than in the surrounding Christian populations. Most Jewish males learned to read and write Hebrew, at least. Judaism places great importance on the study of holy texts, the Tanakh and the Talmud.

In New England, the literacy rate was over 50 percent during the first half of the 17th century, and it rose to 70 percent by 1710. By the time of the American Revolution, it was around 90 percent. This is seen by some as a side effect of the Puritan belief in the importance of Bible reading.

In Wales, the literacy rate rocketed during the 18th century, when Griffith Jones ran a system of circulating schools, with the aim of enabling everyone to read the Bible (in Welsh). It is claimed that, in 1750, Wales had the highest literacy rate of any country in the world.

Historically, the literacy rate has also been high in the Lutheran countries of Northern Europe. The 1686 church law (kyrkolagen) of the Kingdom of Sweden (which at the time included all of modern Sweden, Finland, and Estonia) enforced literacy on the people and a hundred years later, by the end of the 18th century, the literacy rate was close to 100 percent. Even before the 1686 law, literacy was widespread in Sweden. However, the ability to read did not automatically imply ability to write, and as late as the 19th century many Swedes, especially women, could not write. This proves even more difficult, because many literary historians measure literacy rates based on the ability that people had to sign their own names.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Non-Catholics,

If the bible had never been compiled by the early Catholic Church, would you still be Christian? If yes, elaborate on what would convince you. Remember there was no Bible for almost three hundred years after Jesus ascended.

Hi,

Only by the Grace of God. God would probably be the only one that would convince me of the truth.

Heck I didnt fully believe the bible until God called me out (and saved me) by Grace through faith and is daily showing me the truth.