Non-Christian observing Mass: is Latin Mass gone?

[warnel89]

I was raised in a southern baptist family, left the megachurch for a small presbyterian church about eight years ago, but in that time I was always struggling with faith in God. Eventually, two years ago, I rejected Jesus as God and my church excommunicated me. I quickly made up my own religion for myself, making offerings to a god I thought was Athena, but I didn’t enjoy it and my decision to leave christianity gnawed at me. Like my father (who was raised Lutheran), I never knew a time where I didn’t believe in Jesus, but unlike him my doubt led me away from christianity entirely. Or so I thought, until I decided to observe a latin mass.

Well, I hadn’t been inside a church in over two years (you catholics will probably say I’ve never been inside a church) and I liked it. What I didn’t know however, was this sspx chapel isn’t in communion with Rome. So I finally go to church again after two years, and I picked a church that had a latin mass (had to drive almost 2 hrs), only to do some digging and learn they are not on good terms with Rome. So what was the point? I’m still a bit dumbfounded a latin mass was such a rarity, with all the catholics around here. When I think Catholic I think Latin Mass. Do I keep observing at regular masses or go there because its latin?

 

[Fauken]

Do I keep observing at regular masses or go there because its latin?

I’d suggest you observe regular Masses (also known as the Ordinary Form of Mass), but also you can observe the Traditional Latin Mass online celebrated by communities in good standing. I particularly like this one site, which is run by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP):

LiveMass.net

The reason behind the rarity of the TLM is a bit of long, contentious, and polarizing history because it all happened within the last 50 years.

 

[warnel89]

Is TLM being phased out? Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass? As somebody who has never been in good standing with Rome, its all very confusing to me. If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

Thanks.

 

[Newhills]

Is TLM being phased out? Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass? As somebody who has never been in good standing with Rome, its all very confusing to me. If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

I wouldn’t say it’s being phased out - if anything it seems to be making a comeback more widely in my opinion.

And I definitely do not think that there is any reason why you should skip over it.

Extraordinary Form 101 | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[Fauken]

Is TLM being phased out?

No, rather it’s making a comeback.

Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass?

What we call the TLM was originally a product of the Council of Trent in the 1500’s. Before then, while the Mass was valid between rites, rites had their differences even between cities. The TLM was an attempt to unify the way Mass was celebrated so it was the same everywhere you went. Slight changes were made to it over time as centuries went by: the Mass of 1962 is not exactly like it was when Trent promulgated it.

If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

I can give you my amateur’s take on it, since I don’t know any such essays. Vatican II promulgated a new form of the Mass, but it did not abrogate the TLM. There were, however, bishops who wrongly suppressed it. The SSPX was originally founded to preserve the TLM as it was never surpassed, but then in violation of the Pope telling them not to, their founder consecrated four bishops which resulted in all five men being excommunicated. The FSSP actually broke off from the SSPX as a result if that illicit action. The TLM has since been making a come back, thanks to orders like the FSSP and other priests doing it in their parishes.

 

[Montrose]

Is TLM being phased out? Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass? As somebody who has never been in good standing with Rome, its all very confusing to me. If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

Thanks.

For the first 200 years of the Church the Mass was in Greek.

 

[tuffsmurf]

What we now call the Extraordinary form of the Latin mass was made universal during the council at Trent in the 16th century (therefore we can also call it the Tridentine mass). Before that every diocease had its own ritual of the mass, and the Tridentine mass is based on the Roman mass, which originally developed in the diocease of Rome but had become more widespread during the late middle ages.

 

[Dovekin]

Mass is in Latin because that is the language of Rome, the diocese of the Pope. After Vatican II, Pope Paul VI revised the rites of the Mass, and of other sacraments, and permitted bishops around the world to translate those rites into their native languages.

About 10 years ago, Pope Benedict XVI gave a general permission for priests to use the liturgy from 1962, before the Council. This was always celebrated in Latin, and never was officially translated into other languages, so this is sometimes called the Latin Mass. It is also called Tridentine for the Council of Trent as it is a version in use at that time. Benedict XVI called it the Extraordinary Form to distinguish it from the revised ritual that Paul VI issued, which is called the Ordinary Form.

The OF and the EF are two forms of the same mass. They both come from Rome, so the official language of both is Latin. The EF uses only Latin, while the OF has been translated into many languages, and is rarely said in Latin. For all their differences, they are different forms of the one Mass. Both are permitted, generally by the decision of the local bishop, who is responsible for Masses offered in his diocese.

 

[1ke]

Is TLM being phased out?

The Tridentine Mass (the mass from Trent to after Vatican II) is no longer the ordinary form of mass. It’s now the extraordinary form. The ordinary form (called various things, but best just called the ordinary form) can be in Latin. The whole thing can be in Latin, or parts can be in Latin and parts in the vernacular. There are some places that have the ordinary form in Latin, although it’s not common. Holy Rosary in Houston, TX comes to mind. They have the ordinary form in Latin every week. I’ve been to the ordinary form in Latin and quite like it.

For those who prefer the extraordinary form, that is available too, but as it’s extraordinary when and where it’s celebrated varies greatly.

So, no LATIN isn’t being phased out. The order of the mass was updated substantially in the 1960s. The mass of Trent (Tridentine) had been updated between Trent and the 1960s, but the current ordinary form made substantially more updates. Again, in Latin. But, then it was allowed for countries to have translations into the vernacular. Which is what most people attend now.

Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass?

Of course. The mass of the first century would have been in Greek, maybe some Aramaic. Mass was in many languages. That is how the various rites developed. Even today there is more than just the Latin Rite.

The Council of Trent suppressed most of the rites in the Western Church other than the Latin Rite (not all, but most. For example, the Ambrosian Rite of Milan remained untouched and is still a valid Rite in the west). In the eastern Catholic Churches there are many liturgical rites such as Byzantine, Syriac, etc. Different languages, different order of the mass, different liturgical traditions.

f the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

I suggest you go to a Catholic Church in good standing with the diocese. If you want to go to a Tridentine mass, use the Latin mass finder for one in a parish or priestly fraternity good standing:

https://www.latinmassdir.org/

http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass?

Yeah, lots and lots of different Masses. Some of them died out, some of them are still in use today in other parts of the world.

The “Latin Mass”, more formally called the TLM, was started in 1570 and continued as the usual form of the Mass till 1969. Between 1969 and 2007 its use was strictly limited in favor of the current Ordinary Form of the Mass which is “in the vernacular” (meaning, in whatever language people speak where the Mass is celebrated). In 2007, the Pope made it easier for people to celebrate the Latin Mass again if they wished to do so, so the Latin Mass has been making a comeback and can usually be found at a couple of churches in each diocese.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Both ordinary form and extraordinary form are valid, proper, beautiful.

 

[warnel89]

Thank you everyone, your answers are similar to others I’ve gotten.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

It’s probably best just to skip over it, as you put it. It wasn’t a pleasant state of affairs. The Traditional Latin Mass (in recent years called the “Extraordinary Form”) is available in many larger metropolitan areas, as well as smaller cities and towns here and there, in union with the bishop of the local diocese.

I hope you will give traditional Catholicism a chance, and begin attending the Latin Mass.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Is TLM being phased out? Was there a Mass before the Latin Mass? As somebody who has never been in good standing with Rome, its all very confusing to me. If the history is so contentious I’d like to skip over it and just take your advice, but if you know about a beginner’s essay on this history, I’d appreciate that.

The Ordinary Form (OF) and Extraordinary Form (EF) are two forms of the Latin Rite Mass. The OF was formulated after Vatican Council II around 1969-70. While the EF was employed prior to that. your typical Catholic parish most probably will only have a OF Mass. The EF also known as the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) is purely in Latin. While the OF can be in any vernacular language.

There’s also a third type of the Latin Rite Mass - it’s the Ordinariate Mass. for priests and laypeople from an Anglican or Episcopal (also even Methodist) background who have joined the Catholic church. It retains many of the heritage of the Anglican tradition. It’s usually in formal English but has many similarities with the TLM. In the US for example, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter is the jurisdiction for the Ordinariate. Many of the priests of the Ordinariate are ex-Anglican/Episcopal priests.

The Catholic church also has Eastern Catholic liturgies. There are 23 Eastern Catholic churches in full communion with Rome.

The SSPX has a canonically irregular status with Rome. So they are not fully a part of the church. But the FSSP is another order that’s fully in communion with Rome and they do TLM. others in full communion include the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (ICKSP) and the Institute of the Good Shepherd. Check with your local parishes and the local diocese as well. Some more traditional parishes offer both the OF and EF too.

 

[Pattylt]

I hadn’t been to Mass in many years. As a youth, I would go with my best friend and back then, it was still in Latin (pre Vat2). When I decided to visit a Mass again this year, I went to the local parish and it’s the ordinary form. I really liked being able to understand it as I don’t speak a lick of Latin. I think for many Catholics, they just have a preference for one or the other and both are quite beautiful. From my point of view, it’s wonderful that you have a choice!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I hadn’t been to Mass in many years. As a youth, I would go with my best friend and back then, it was still in Latin (pre Vat2). When I decided to visit a Mass again this year, I went to the local parish and it’s the ordinary form. I really liked being able to understand it as I don’t speak a lick of Latin. I think for many Catholics, they just have a preference for one or the other and both are quite beautiful. From my point of view, it’s wonderful that you have a choice!

It is not necessary to understand the language of the Mass, to profit spiritually and to gain great graces from it. When the Mass was entirely in Latin, many people used personal hand missals that had Latin on one side, and their own language on the other. Moreover, well-educated people up until around the turn of the last century had at least some knowledge of Latin.

As I have noted on these forums before, if it had been my decision to make, and if there were such a great, pressing need, such a hue and cry, for Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular, I would have simply commissioned dignified, literary vernacular translations of the Tridentine missal, with possibly a whittling-down of the more cumbersome physical rubrics. (Some say that each and every ritual within the Mass, even those accretions that took place over time, are there for a reason and are inspired by the Holy Spirit. It’s a legitimate opinion, but it then follows that we restrict the Holy Spirit, that He can only inspire the Church to add, He cannot inspire the Church to subtract.) But my opinion wasn’t asked, I was only a child, and I wasn’t even Catholic yet!

I would attend only the Traditional Latin Mass if it were available to me. It is a two-hour drive each way, and even discounting the pandemic, I have circumstances in my life right now that do not allow that kind of travel often. Otherwise, I attend the Novus Ordo out of obligation, though I will concede that I enjoy great peace and receive even palpable graces from it.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I wouldn’t go to SSPX, but, as shocking is this is to some Catholics, I’m not a big Latin Mass person (I don’t dislike it, and I do go, sometimes). But, you haven’t got to be an SSPX person to go to Latin Mass, and other people besides SSPX offer it, like the FSSP. I have been to neither, and I have still been to several Latin Masses. (Although, I have been to way more Byzantine Divine Liturgies)

 

[Pattylt]

Even the Jewish synagogues have switched to more English than just the homily…probably similar to Catholics no longer speaking fluent Latin, fewer Jews are learning Hebrew. Well, they learn enough Hebrew for their Bar/Bat Mitzvot but at 13, they don’t retain it very long! All the prayers are in Hebrew and the readings from the Torah are but now they also tend to translate it as well.

People have their preferences and my personal feeling is that having the choice is great. When more English was added to services, plenty of old men were up in arms…they’ve either died or gotten over it. It’s not like that much English was actually added.

The only comment about the Latin vs English is that it was really nice from my perspective to understand the Mass…but, the Mass isn’t given for visitors…it’s given for the faithful in the pew. In my youth when I attended my friends Mass, it never bothered me that I didn’t understand it as I didn’t understand much Hebrew yet in my own services! That part felt pretty normal!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I wouldn’t go to SSPX, but, as shocking is this is to some Catholics, I’m not a big Latin Mass person (I don’t dislike it, and I do go, sometimes). But, you haven’t got to be an SSPX person to go to Latin Mass, and other people besides SSPX offer it, like the FSSP. I have been to neither, and I have still been to several Latin Masses. (Although, I have been to way more Byzantine Divine Liturgies)

If you are in the vicinity you appear to be, from your past postings, you are probably already aware of this, but there are FSSP Masses in Atlanta and Greenville, as well as SSPX Masses in Atlanta and Charlotte. Charlotte also has a non-FSSP diocesan Latin Mass every Sunday at two parishes in the city. (That’d be a nice place to live, if you could stand the traffic.)

I am definitely a “big Latin Mass person”.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Even the Jewish synagogues have switched to more English than just the homily…probably similar to Catholics no longer speaking fluent Latin, fewer Jews are learning Hebrew. Well, they learn enough Hebrew for their Bar/Bat Mitzvot but at 13, they don’t retain it very long! All the prayers are in Hebrew and the readings from the Torah are but now they also tend to translate it as well.

People have their preferences and my personal feeling is that having the choice is great. When more English was added to services, plenty of old men were up in arms…they’ve either died or gotten over it. It’s not like that much English was actually added.

The only comment about the Latin vs English is that it was really nice from my perspective to understand the Mass…but, the Mass isn’t given for visitors…it’s given for the faithful in the pew. In my youth when I attended my friends Mass, it never bothered me that I didn’t understand it as I didn’t understand much Hebrew yet in my own services! That part felt pretty normal!

Your analogy is pretty accurate, only difference being, Catholics never spoke Latin, at least the formal, ecclesiastical Latin used in the liturgy. Latin morphed into the various Romance languages, such as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and French (that is a bit of an over-simplification). I suppose it could be argued that modern, vernacular, revived Hebrew is different from the hieratic Hebrew used in temple services. Just how different, I don’t know, Hebrew isn’t my area of expertise.

Your reference to “old men… up in arms” made me smile. Try to imagine, just for a moment, that Jewish liturgies (I hope that’s the proper word), within the space of seven years, were re-imagined from top to bottom, with Hebrew, while still officially “on the books”, being totally eliminated. People who would object would be told “we are not doing this anymore, that’s out of date, people need to have a simplified, more accessible way to pray and worship G-d, and even to have the desire to worship in Hebrew is thirsting after a antiquated notion that we are putting behind us”. I have to imagine that many Jews would be far more than “up in arms” about it, and not just “old men”. (The argument I have just described is, in so many words, exactly what I was told by various people, including priests, when I objected that we should be able to worship in Latin. And I was far from being an “old man”.)