Not By Scripture Alone

[Mintaka]

Nobody wants to argue for impeccability, because then the Church wouldn’t accept any of us as members.

 

[Philthy]

The same as in, no new doctrinal information not already recorded in scripture

Catholics also claim this - your point is useless because we wont agree on wht is “new” doctrine and what is “not already recorded”. For example, does “This is my body” provide biblical proof of transubstantiation? Does “The sins of those you forgive are forgiven them” mean that people confessed their sins to the Apostles who actually had the authority of forgive them? I say yes and you say no. Useless.
kc:

Luke wrote the book to Theopholus who recieved it along with other believers who knew Theopholus and Luke.

Care to prove it? Neither Luke nor Theopholus were Apostles - why should I care about what they have to say even if it were them? There were still Apostles around - why didnt they write the Scriptures?
kc:

The church recieved this book on the testimony of Theopholus and the many others who knew both Luke and Theopholus.

The church? What church? You mean the Catholic Churhc? Where is this found in Scripture? Oh, thats right, it isnt - you simply realized that you have no leg to stand on and through this out there as if it somehow could stand on its own. But it cant. What you have just explained is how the CHURCH is the entity to which we must turn for the truth, because it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 2:15).
kc:

This book was then passed down thru the generation of believers with the witness that it was authentic.

You have not a clue. This is simply your best guess. The only “generation of beleivers” we have proof of is the Catholic Church.
kc:

The Body of Christ recognized the voice of its Shepherd, offcourse.

Of course? Then why was there so much debate - and still is! - on what contstitues Scripture? Did you forget that not all Christians agree on which books are the “voice of its Shepherd”
kc:

I believe your have the same problem only worse.

Not at all.
kc:

You obviously don’t know the contents of this “oral tradition” and must speculate that **important **doctinal information, not found in the written epistles, must coexist along side written doctrine. The logic or purpose of this dichotomy makes no sense and is not even hinted at any where is scripture.

I dont have unanswered questions like you do. You dont know what Christ meant when he said “This is my body” Catholics do. You dont know what James meant when he said “man is justified by works and not by faith alone” Catholics do. You are left guessing whether “once saved always saved” is true - Catholics have a living, interactive source of Truth in the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth in addition to the complete canon of Scripture.

 

[mozart-250]

That’s just so depressing for me. This view is becoming more and more prominent as Protestantism continues to splinter more and more. The thought that Christ, who is the “truth,” came and left the fullness of divine revelation in the hands of each individual to fin for themselves is simply unthinkable to me. It makes no sense. Why go to all the trouble to deliver the fullness of truth in revelation to the Apostles, only to let each individual figure out what they want to believe, while never possessing this truth in it’s fullness? I realize this isn’t a proof, but in having this discussion it just renewed my sadness over the devastating effects the Reformation has brought to Christianity.

Actually I find it quite consistent with the way God operated in the Old Testament. When His people departed from doing what He wanted to do, He would withdraw His blessing (His presence, protection, and giftings) and sort of let His people flounder around until they got it right.

The reason for the disconnect when I read Acts and observe the church today is not God’s fault.

I know this is Protestant heresy, but sometimes I wonder whether the Reformation was that great of an idea myself, given the advantage I have of hindsight. But I also wonder whether the Civil War and the American Revolution were great ideas. A Catholic (I think) theologian I read used the words “mutual impoverishment” concerning the church dividing upon itself, and think I agree with him.

As far as saying you should convert to Catholicism based on not being able to prove it wrong, I was not saying that. My point was a response to your statement, "But the point is that I am not claiming the Catholic denomination is “wrong”. I was saying that despite not making formal denunciations of the Catholic Church, you are claiming that Catholicism is wrong, and that the BOP still remains with you to disprove it as a Protestant. Again, without Catholicism being wrong, Protestantism has no need to exist.

Yeah…I believe Catholicism is wrong on some things…but I’m not prone to go to a Catholic internet web site and start a thread “This is how Catholicism is all wrong”.

First of all, I’m not smart enough to prove it. Sheesh, I can’t even “prove” it to myself. But if everything had to be proved out to me, I would still be an agnostic.

Besides there is enough wrong on my side of the house that for me to do that really smells like attempting to pick the speck out of my brothers eyes without seeing the log in my own eye.

There are enough arrogant Christians out there. I try not to be one of them.

 

[Redbandito]

Actually I find it quite consistent with the way God operated in the Old Testament. When His people departed from doing what He wanted to do, He would withdraw His blessing (His presence, protection, and giftings) and sort of let His people flounder around until they got it right.

The reason for the disconnect when I read Acts and observe the church today is not God’s fault…

I agree that it is not God’s fault. The only issue I take with your response is that this is a new and better covenant. The Jews did not have the fullness of divine revelation. Christians do. God did not make the same promises to the Jews he made to the followers of Christ. Ultimately, the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom has come through Christ. It is the Church. Thus, I see no way God can draw back his promises and blessings with the Church short of a total apostasy, which we are assured won’t happen by Christ himself.

I know this is Protestant heresy, but sometimes I wonder whether the Reformation was that great of an idea myself, given the advantage I have of hindsight. But I also wonder whether the Civil War and the American Revolution were great ideas. A Catholic (I think) theologian I read used the words “mutual impoverishment” concerning the church dividing upon itself, and think I agree with him.

Yeah…I believe Catholicism is wrong on some things…but I’m not prone to go to a Catholic internet web site and start a thread “This is how Catholicism is all wrong”.

First of all, I’m not smart enough to prove it. Sheesh, I can’t even “prove” it to myself. But if everything had to be proved out to me, I would still be an agnostic.

Besides there is enough wrong on my side of the house that for me to do that really smells like attempting to pick the speck out of my brothers eyes without seeing the log in my own eye.

There are enough arrogant Christians out there. I try not to be one of them.

I love your honesty. It is appreciated my brother. The only thing I would say is, “Test everything, hold on to the good.”

 

[mozart-250]

Amen to that Mozart! Which is why it is so important that we really test this topic. What if you were to find that Christ really did leave us an infallible Church? What would that mean for your life today? Could you leave the comforts or your church and follow Christ to this Church, even if it meant becoming Catholic? I know I could, because I did. And if I ever found that this Church was not infallible, I would quite possibly be gone tomorrow.

If Catholicism is indeed infallible as it claims, then I am a heretic belonging to a false organization that in reality has been anathematized by God (see Trent).

The problem is that I have seen too much good (despite our obvious flaws)…too much presence of the Lord via the Holy Spirit…too many lives changed through the gospel of Jesus Christ…seen to much of the gospel spread to areas of the world that don’t know the name Jesus…to really take seriously the idea that God has cursed our churches…infallible Trent notwithstanding.

So given that is the claim of Catholicism over the ecclesiastical organizations I have been in, I am shall I say very skeptical.

 

[Redbandito]

If Catholicism is indeed infallible as it claims, then I am a heretic belonging to a false organization that in reality has been anathematized by God (see Trent).

The problem is that I have seen too much good (despite our obvious flaws)…too much presence of the Lord via the Holy Spirit…too many lives changed through the gospel of Jesus Christ…seen to much of the gospel spread to areas of the world that don’t know the name Jesus…to really take seriously the idea that God has cursed our churches…infallible Trent notwithstanding.

So given that is the claim of Catholicism over the ecclesiastical organizations I have been in, I am shall I say very skeptical.

Mozart, God is good! Don’t get me wrong. I believe God judges the culpability of the person by His heart. Therefore, in some way I do believe God continues to keep Protestant churches united to Him through their faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is not at all surprising that God continues to work in the lives of Protestants. I believe that absolutely! I also believe, however, that God wants MORE for all of us. What would the Church be like, if these awesome Protestants were part of the infallible, One, Holy, and Apostolic Church? What would happen if all Christians were united in “spirit and truth” as Christ is to the Father? It would be awesome! That Church would be a true army for God. That’s what I wish for all of you. Not that you would come to realize the error of your ways, but that you would come to recognize the total fulfillment of ALL (not just some or even most) God’s promises through His Church.

 

[Mike_Brick]

If Catholicism is indeed infallible as it claims, then I am a heretic belonging to a false organization that in reality has been anathematized by God (see Trent)

Mozart, does your church sing the hymn “Softly and Tenderly, Jesus is Calling”, if so pay attention to the verse and “come home” to the Bride of Christ. You could do great things with your love of and committment to our Lord!

In His Love