Not open to having children

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yet AGAIN, which you would know if you bother to read the other posts, have I in anyway “attacked” the Church. I have NEVER said the Church was wrong in its teachings, that I think it should change, or that what I feel it right!!!

If I come across as a bit angry I am. It is completely unfair and ungracious of you to present that I am attacking the Church, when I have simply have never done so! Nor have I ever said anyone here should change their beliefs!

I am not a Catholic theologian, but I have worked with Catholic priests for 230 years and have asked many questions, and none of them presume to know what God wants as much as some people on this site, which I find very ironic.

I have simply present how I and millions of other Catholic feel today, not that we want change or are right! Not once have I said that.

No the church didn’t teach the world was flat, they believed it at one time and through science we all know now that it is not. I have degrees sociology, psychology, and OT and through work in the past I have met people that I would say should not be open to having and raising children, but did find interacting with adult and could easily have a successful marriage.

You really truly think with the way people are today that every married couple should have children? Please don’t say if it is God’s will, because than I would have to say, is it then God’s will for hookers and child abuser to have children while the holiest of couple are unable to have children of there own?

Shelby, I think some can be confused as to what you are saying. You often state that you do not say the Church is wrong. But that you disagree with some things. So, either the Church needs to change and is wrong or you are. And if one felt that they were wrong then they would not hold “wrong” beliefs. So I think many infer that you are saying the Church is wrong. I know that is how I have read a lot of your posts. It seems that either you do not want to defend your beliefs because you know the deck is stacked in a Catholic forum or that you are indeed in a state of inner turmoil. Either way I hope that CAF is a source of encouragement and peace for you, because so often it looks like it is a source of agitation in your life. I hope that it is something you enjoy and brings you spiritual growth in your Catholic faith. I know it does to me even though I have been frustrated at times.

I still would like clarification on your comments about “this” particular Pope.

I think some people might be confused as to your seeming hostility to certain Church issues. Perhaps you are not expressing yourself clear enough for some. Or perhaps some are just looking for a reason to jump on you. I don’t know, but it seems to be a theme.

 

[Rau]

I have simply present[ed] how I and millions of other Catholic feel today, not that we want change or are right! Not once have I said that.

But why don’t you say that? Why don’t you advocate that the Church adopt the positions that you’ve put (and defended) in areas of marriage and sexuality? What merit do your beliefs have (in your mind) if they do not even rise to the level of prompting you to advocate (even anonymously, here on CAF) for the Church to change, or for individuals to consider and perhaps come around to your view?

This is an example of how I’m hearing your message (paraphrased): “I think it is perfectly fine and proper for [insert Shelby’s position here which is contrary to Church position]” and simultaneously “I don’t suggest for a moment that anyone else ought to come around to my way of thinking, no, no no…it’s just what I and millions like me believe…”



Thanks for sharing, but I’d take more notice if you marshalled your passion and called the Church out where you think it is wrong, and laid out how it should get onto the right track.

 

[thewanderer]

It teaches that all those who marry must be open to having children.

Thank you very much for your response. Ok, so just for the sake of clarity, is it correct that when you posted the following you did not mean to imply that the Church actually teaches that everyone should have children? But were rather just being imprecise in your wording because of your frustration with the Church’s teaching?

You simply cannot expect every single person in the world to like or tolerate children. For the Church to teach that only leads to depression, guilt, etc. I see it as very uncaring and outdated along with millions of other Catholic around the world.

I don’t agree with the Church that everyone should have children.

Well like the Church backing that the world was flat, science as had us evolve by finding out the world is round. With science we now know that people are very chemically different in many different ways, and whether it is a selfish genes or fear or whatever, not all people are made to have children, which is out biggest responsibility in this world (IMO) to get right by the right people not just any human being alive.

(With this last one you do not explicitly claim the Church teaches all people are made to have children, but it does seem to be implied)

I hope you understand that I am honestly not trying to pick on you, its just that the way you are posting is confusing the issue. Either you are mistaken about what the Church teaches or you are using very misleading and inaccurate language, either of which makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion on the matter.

You really truly think with the way people are today that every married couple should have children? Please don’t say if it is God’s will, because than I would have to say, is it then God’s will for hookers and child abuser to have children while the holiest of couple are unable to have children of there own?

I just wanted to address this post in particular. Saying that a permanent intention against children at the time of marriage invalidates the attempt at matrimony is a very different thing than claiming even that every married couple ought to have children. The difference is subtle, but very real and important and is related to the point I brought up earlier in this thread about the distinction between a permanent intention against children vs an effectively permanent intention against children which is contingent on serious reasons to avoid conception. The latter does not invalidate and attempt at marriage, only an actual permanent intention against children at the time of the marriage invalidates the attempt.

 

[thewanderer]

Again, just for clarity’s sake, I think the reason people think you are attacking Church is because of statements like this

I find it very hard to accept that people who are mature enough to realize they would not make good parents for whatever reason could not and should not be able to share their live and have a relationship with another person.

These people are suppose to live out their lives alone with no true personal relationship. I find that very uncharitable. I seriously do not think God wants people to be lonelier than they are, at truly no fault of there own. Some people simply don’t take to children, that should not keep them from marrying, especially if their faith is strong in any other way.

This looks very much as though you are claiming that the Church’s teaching is uncharitable.

You simply cannot expect every single person in the world to like or tolerate children. For the Church to teach that only leads to depression, guilt, etc. I see it as very uncaring and outdated along with millions of other Catholic around the world.

And here it looks very much as though you are claiming that the Church and her teachings are uncaring.

Do you see how statements like this look like an attack on Church teaching?

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby sun,

Please stop taking things out of context, or leaving things out to change the meaning of what is said, and then presenting it as though it is Church teaching. If you cannot understand the teaching, then perhaps you need to do some more studying (perhaps offline), speak with your priest, and/or see a spiritual director for help in understanding. But to keep implying that “the Church says” these false (or “half-true”) things, especially after the correct teaching has been pointed out to you, is deceitful and manipulative on your part. Please stop it.

These issues could be reasons to avoid pregnancy, which the Church allows in marriage. These reasons would not necessarily mean it’s an invalid marriage.
Nor does the Church say that we should have as many children as physically possible even if we cannot provide for their needs.

This is what I’m talking about. You’ve taken what was said out of context and you’ve even changed the meaning of it. The Church does NOT say that “every person ever born should marry and have children.” The Church does NOT say that everyone is supposed to get married and have children. In fact, not even the person to whom you were responding said either of those things.

And in case it comes up (or in case it already has and I missed it), couples who are willing but unable to have children, or who have serious reason to avoid pregnancy for an indefinite amount of time, do NOT necessarily have invalid marriages according to the Church.

As for the couple you know whom you say are not planning to have children… it’s frankly none of your business (or ours) whether they were/are actually open to having children or not–for all you know, it may be a temporary thing or they may have serious reason to avoid pregnancy or they might even be abstaining. Even if they aren’t open to life, how involved they are with their Church and community has nothing to do with the validity of their marriage or whether or not they are sinning. You don’t know enough details (much as you probably think you do) to judge the validity of their marriage, and besides, it doesn’t even MATTER for this discussion. One instance of hearsay does not a valid argument make.

Am I wrong in assuming you have not read all the post on this thread. I have never said every single should get married!!! I have said that married Catholic couple are suppose to be open to having children? Tell me how I misunderstood or manipulated that? I think it is more how you want to read it, or how you haven’t read the other post so to understand my last one.

No we are not talking about the ones that are open to children and cannot have them at all. Now why don’t you take a good look at yourself because I have worked with my co-workers for over twenty years and they have made their thoughts on things my business, I did not ask! So how are you to know how many detail I now, that is just way to presumptuous on your part don’t you think? But you would know better than I right? So are you saying that the couple I speak of is committing hearsay according to the Church?

 

[CatholicRaven]

Uhh… do you know what hearsay is?

I think it is futile for me to continue trying to converse with you. I’m going to step away from this thread so as to avoid any more unnecessary and distracting confrontations.

I wish you no ill will and I will pray for you.

 

[shelby_sun]

Again, just for clarity’s sake, I think the reason people think you are attacking Church is because of statements like this

This looks very much as though you are claiming that the Church’s teaching is uncharitable.

And here it looks very much as though you are claiming that the Church and her teachings are uncaring.

Do you see how statements like this look like an attack on Church teaching?

Well if you want to use the word attack that is your right.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thank you very much for your response. Ok, so just for the sake of clarity, is it correct that when you posted the following you did not mean to imply that the Church actually teaches that everyone should have children? But were rather just being imprecise in your wording because of your frustration with the Church’s teaching?

(With this last one you do not explicitly claim the Church teaches all people are made to have children, but it does seem to be implied)

I hope you understand that I am honestly not trying to pick on you, its just that the way you are posting is confusing the issue. Either you are mistaken about what the Church teaches or you are using very misleading and inaccurate language, either of which makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion on the matter.

I just wanted to address this post in particular. Saying that a permanent intention against children at the time of marriage invalidates the attempt at matrimony is a very different thing than claiming even that every married couple ought to have children. The difference is subtle, but very real and important and is related to the point I brought up earlier in this thread about the distinction between a permanent intention against children vs an effectively permanent intention against children which is contingent on serious reasons to avoid conception. The latter does not invalidate and attempt at marriage, only an actual permanent intention against children at the time of the marriage invalidates the attempt.

Yes I have been imprecise. Yes I thought I was clear that I meant a person’s permanent intent against children solely because they lack the desire to have children. So I was correct in saying that the Church would find this marriage invalid.

On other points like annulments I cannot see someone married 30 years having to annul their marriage to remarry. I understand the adultery thing but to say a 30 yr marriage was invalid from the beginning in the eyes of the Church diminishes everything that happened in that marriage. Now yes you will argue I don’t see it correctly, but that is how many see it.

There really is no point in explaining my feeling. I am not nor have I ever tried to convince anyone what I think is right. And no one on here is going to make me see things their way or the Church’s way on these points.

Let me try to give one final example. As I said before I have been severely underweight for over thirty years. At one point doctor told me that if I didn’t die, I would at least never be able to have children, which was the only thing making keep fighting to get weight on. My husband and I did have trouble conceiving but ironically it was my husband who had the issue. I knew without a doubt God kept me alive in order for me to carry a child of my own. So my husband and I did artificial insemination and I went on to have a 9lb 10 oz baby boy. Our next child came along 13 months later with no artificial help at all. I weighed 116 lbs. the day I had my third child weighing 8lb11oz. To this day their has never been a doubt in my mind that I did something against God, but rather that God was guiding me all the way. The Church says I was not suppose to do what I did, but I do not believe God was because he was truly saving my life.

Now I know people will say I am just rationalizing what I did was OK to get what I want and that is fine, but I feel I was using the developments that have been discovered just as doctors use means to bring back someone who has stopped breathing. Again many will say it is I am not right or I don’t understand, fine.

There are many other better spoken people to try to explain how many other Catholic think think and I am going to let them continue to do so. For many reason I will not be posting anymore, but mostly because this site wants to make me leave the Church each and everyday, which I still might do someday because yours is a Church I simply don’t want to belong.

 

[Rau]

…I am not nor have I ever tried to convince anyone what I think is right. And no one on here is going to make me see things their way or the Church’s way on these points…

Why not? Why do you post, if not to discuss and debate?

 

[thewanderer]

Yes I have been imprecise. Yes I thought I was clear that I meant a person’s permanent intent against children solely because they lack the desire to have children. So I was correct in saying that the Church would find this marriage invalid.

On other points like annulments I cannot see someone married 30 years having to annul their marriage to remarry. I understand the adultery thing but to say a 30 yr marriage was invalid from the beginning in the eyes of the Church diminishes everything that happened in that marriage. Now yes you will argue I don’t see it correctly, but that is how many see it.

There really is no point in explaining my feeling. I am not nor have I ever tried to convince anyone what I think is right. And no one on here is going to make me see things their way or the Church’s way on these points.

Let me try to give one final example. As I said before I have been severely underweight for over thirty years. At one point doctor told me that if I didn’t die, I would at least never be able to have children, which was the only thing making keep fighting to get weight on. My husband and I did have trouble conceiving but ironically it was my husband who had the issue. I knew without a doubt God kept me alive in order for me to carry a child of my own. So my husband and I did artificial insemination and I went on to have a 9lb 10 oz baby boy. Our next child came along 13 months later with no artificial help at all. I weighed 116 lbs. the day I had my third child weighing 8lb11oz. To this day their has never been a doubt in my mind that I did something against God, but rather that God was guiding me all the way. The Church says I was not suppose to do what I did, but I do not believe God was because he was truly saving my life.

Now I know people will say I am just rationalizing what I did was OK to get what I want and that is fine, but I feel I was using the developments that have been discovered just as doctors use means to bring back someone who has stopped breathing. Again many will say it is I am not right or I don’t understand, fine.

There are many other better spoken people to try to explain how many other Catholic think think and I am going to let them continue to do so. For many reason I will not be posting anymore, but mostly because this site wants to make me leave the Church each and everyday, which I still might do someday because yours is a Church I simply don’t want to belong.

Shelby, may I ask what is the point of this thread? You clearly are not open to trying to better understand what the Church teaches or why the Church teaches what it teaches. You also claim to not be trying to convince others of your point of view. Are you just trying to vent? or what?

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby, may I ask what is the point of this thread? You clearly are not open to trying to better understand what the Church teaches or why the Church teaches what it teaches. You also claim to not be trying to convince others of your point of view. Are you just trying to vent? or what?

I find it funny that I can understand why you feel the way you do, yet you do not at all try to understand, not agree, but understand how or why so many Catholic feel as I do. I certainly did not come on to vent, but you seem to want to portray me as that way, that is up to you.

 

[Rau]

I find it funny that I can understand why you feel the way you do, yet you do not at all try to understand, not agree, but understand how or why so many Catholic feel as I do. I certainly did not come on to vent, but you seem to want to portray me as that way, that is up to you.

Shelby, he just asked if you are venting, he is not portraying you at all. I for one have no difficulty understanding your view on these issues. I just don’t understand why you give voice to them on CAF, given you’ve said you have no wish to persuade anyone else to your view, nor to be persuaded to the Church view. What do you seek on CAF?

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby, he just asked if you are venting, he is not portraying you at all. I for one have no difficulty understanding your view on these issues. I just don’t understand why you give voice to them on CAF, given you’ve said you have no wish to persuade anyone else to your view, nor to be persuaded to the Church view. What do you seek on CAF?

I truly guess I misunderstood this site. I thought it was open to anyone for discussion. I didn’t know one had to have some mission with what they said. I know now it is not a place for me and I need to stay in my own Catholic community where we go out and serve God instead of judging others.

 

[thewanderer]

I find it funny that I can understand why you feel the way you do, yet you do not at all try to understand, not agree, but understand how or why so many Catholic feel as I do. I certainly did not come on to vent, but you seem to want to portray me as that way, that is up to you.

Shelby, what in the world gives you the idea that I never bother to even try to understand where Catholics who don’t agree with Church teaching are coming from? I am simply trying to understand why you started this thread so that I can know how to respond to your posts here. (Which, ironically enough, means that I am actually trying to understand where you are coming from)

I originally thought you posted your question so that you could actually learn more about the Church and her teachings, and so, I responded by making an effort to explain them to you. However, your responses do not sound like those of a person interested in learning more or better understanding what the Church teaches or why the Church believes what it does. Becuase of this I honestly have no idea what you want out of this thread and that is why I asked you what the purpose of this thread is. I’m not trying to claim there is no purpose, I’m just trying to understand what it is so that I can figure out how to be a useful participant.

 

[thewanderer]

I truly guess I misunderstood this site. I thought it was open to anyone for discussion. I didn’t know one had to have some mission with what they said. I know now it is not a place for me and I need to stay in my own Catholic community where we go out and serve God** instead of judging others**.

Shelby, if you wish to accuse people here of judging you please provide actual evidence that they are. Do not just throw out un-substantiated accusations. It is not charitable to do so.

 

[Rau]

I truly guess I misunderstood this site. I thought it was open to anyone for discussion. I didn’t know one had to have some mission with what they said. I know now it is not a place for me and I need to stay in my own Catholic community where we go out and serve God instead of judging others.

What discussion is possible when you make baffling statements like this:

“There really is no point in explaining my feeling. I am not nor have I ever tried to convince anyone what I think is right. And no one on here is going to make me see things their way or the Church’s way on these points”.

 

[Holly3278]

Well, it is gravely sinful to not be open to procreation. However, in the case of serious health conditions one can use Natural Family Planning which is NOT the Rhythm Method. It is a way of monitoring one’s menstrual cycle so that they know when they are fertile and when they are not. If a person’s mental illness is especially severe then it may be justified to use Natural Family Planning for spacing of children or prevention of pregnancy. However, I am not qualified to speak on this subject so I would recommend talking to a qualified priest on the subject.