Not sure I see the problem with being the 'puppet' of God?

[Thomas_Jennings]

What’s wrong with being a puppet of God as opposed to having free will?- If God IS joy and life…and the opposite is death and nothingness…why NOT be a puppet?

I’d rather not have the choice, thank you very much. I still don’t see the point of it.

Why have the option of evil when nobody wants it? I can see how a dictatorship in this World would be a bane…because dictators are fallible human’s and we need our freedom to express ourselves in ways according to our own personalities, not under somebody else’s ideals.
But God GAVE us our personal longings in the soul…it wouldn’t derail them by having the nucleus of all that in command!

And I just don’t GET this supposed Satan fella. How can some being decide he wants oblivion? If CS Lewis is correct, the kernel of every desire- though many choose the wrong, evil method to attempt to gain it- is from God. In which case, Satan’s just an idiot- THINKING he wants oblivion/evil but in fact He doesn’t. Why would God allow anyone to make this mistake?
If ‘evil’ exists, it is evidently not a choice between our ‘animal’ selves ( before ‘knowledge’)and the Spirit (animals are not evil in their actions)…it’s a choice between life/joy and death: surely the ones who choose death are in error rather than voicing what they truly want? There IS (according to theology) only ONE want in the soul. And surely this is evident if you glance at any truly wicked man…they always chase what they think will give them happiness or an additional gain in life. NO one deliberately follows the true Evil by wanting nothingness. Even nihilists tend to be angry because they think life lacks meaning (proving what they actually want or would think would make life beneficial is meaningfulness…) and that makes them disgusted with reality. “I like life being pointless and not existing,” said no one- EVER.

(This IS admittedly a similar thread to my last one- but I think it’s possibly better worded. Thanks for your previous posts. They were very informative but I’m not quite fully clued up- not just yet!).

 

[Antegin]

Sometimes when I see the atrocious things that some do with their free will, I think, ‘’…this gift should be returned.’’

God gave us free will so that we could freely choose to love him. Our choice is not between existence and oblivion, but between loving God or rejecting Him. This way, our love is not just another creation of God’s but our gift to Him because He is worthy of that love. Unlike God’s love, our love is imperfect. God didn’t put evil in our hearts, we chose them. If our only choices were to love and to love, it would not be us choosing God.

Satan and sin are really easy to understand. It’s all about choosing to love yourself instead of God. Satan’s pride, which is extreme self love, is what led to his rebellion. His jealousy, which is the belief he should be loved over man, is what unleashes his murderous fury towards us.

For the record, I to think Satan’s an idjet.:doh2:

 

[fhansen]

What’s wrong with being a puppet of God as opposed to having free will?- If God IS joy and life…and the opposite is death and nothingness…why NOT be a puppet?

I’d rather not have the choice, thank you very much. I still don’t see the point of it.

Why have the option of evil when nobody wants it? I can see how a dictatorship in this World would be a bane…because dictators are fallible human’s and we need our freedom to express ourselves in ways according to our own personalities, not under somebody else’s ideals.
But God GAVE us our personal longings in the soul…it wouldn’t derail them by having the nucleus of all that in command!

And I just don’t GET this supposed Satan fella. How can some being decide he wants oblivion? If CS Lewis is correct, the kernel of every desire- though many choose the wrong, evil method to attempt to gain it- is from God. In which case, Satan’s just an idiot- THINKING he wants oblivion/evil but in fact He doesn’t. Why would God allow anyone to make this mistake?
If ‘evil’ exists, it is evidently not a choice between our ‘animal’ selves ( before ‘knowledge’)and the Spirit (animals are not evil in their actions)…it’s a choice between life/joy and death: surely the ones who choose death are in error rather than voicing what they truly want? There IS (according to theology) only ONE want in the soul. And surely this is evident if you glance at any truly wicked man…they always chase what they think will give them happiness or an additional gain in life. NO one deliberately follows the true Evil by wanting nothingness. Even nihilists tend to be angry because they think life lacks meaning (proving what they actually want or would think would make life beneficial is meaningfulness…) and that makes them disgusted with reality. “I like life being pointless and not existing,” said no one- EVER.

(This IS admittedly a similar thread to my last one- but I think it’s possibly better worded. Thanks for your previous posts. They were very informative but I’m not quite fully clued up- not just yet!).

Well, for one thing, if we have to *decide *whether or not we’d like to be a puppet, then we’re already not one! In any case we do have to decide who the puppet master will be-God, or ourselves puling our own strings. And pride’s a weird and fickle thing. It doesn’t listen to reason-it just wants what it wants- which, ultimately, seems to be the top position. Pride turned satan into the most gifted and intelligent idiot in the universe.

 

[TK421]

According to St Ignatius, on the subject of discerning vocation and other life decisions, evil choices aren’t really considered choices at all. They are dreadful aberrations that nobody ought to even consider. The real choices in life lay in the art of choosing between varying degrees of good choices. If you write an essay, there are many - numberless - correct ways that you can go about in supporting a thesis. Technically speaking, there is the option of intentionally putting falsehoods into the essay as well, but a student in their right mind ought not to consider that a conceivable option.

And yet, among men and angels, there is evil. So apparently many do choose evil. God doesn’t put wickedness out there as a legitimate option. It is simply a radical possibility that exists as a result of being a rational creature. If you are capable of turning to face the awesome power of the light, then by default you’re capable of turning your back to it. The problem with being a puppet of God is that “you” would be an algorithm, no more than the sum of your parts. You wouldn’t really exist. Not in anyway that is worth comparing to what you actually are.

A child will scorn his parents. He will talk back to them; he will ignore their instructions; he will not eat his vegetables; he will roll his eyes; he will go to Mass with them begrudgingly; he will not do his homework; he might even say, “I hate you”. He might stop talking to them for years. He might throw them in a nursing home and tell the staff to call him when they’re dead. He might commit suicide and cause his parents worlds of pain. A trained dog will do none of the above things. Functionally, household pets are infinitely superior to children. Which is greater value to the parents: the child or the dog?

 

[tonyrey]

Well, for one thing, if we have to *decide *whether or not we’d like to be a puppet, then we’re already not one! In any case we do have to decide who the puppet master will be-God, or ourselves puling our own strings. And pride’s a weird and fickle thing. It doesn’t listen to reason-it just wants what it wants- which, ultimately, seems to be the top position. Pride turned satan into the most gifted and intelligent idiot in the universe.

Delightful post!

 

[tonyrey]

According to St Ignatius, on the subject of discerning vocation and other life decisions, evil choices aren’t really considered choices at all. They are dreadful aberrations that nobody ought to even consider. The real choices in life lay in the art of choosing between varying degrees of good choices. If you write an essay, there are many - numberless - correct ways that you can go about in supporting a thesis. Technically speaking, there is the option of intentionally putting falsehoods into the essay as well, but a student in their right mind ought not to consider that a conceivable option.

And yet, among men and angels, there is evil. So apparently many do choose evil. God doesn’t put wickedness out there as a legitimate option. It is simply a radical possibility that exists as a result of being a rational creature. If you are capable of turning to face the awesome power of the light, then by default you’re capable of turning your back to it. The problem with being a puppet of God is that “you” would be an algorithm, no more than the sum of your parts. You wouldn’t really exist. Not in anyway that is worth comparing to what you actually are.

A child will scorn his parents. He will talk back to them; he will ignore their instructions; he will not eat his vegetables; he will roll his eyes; he will go to Mass with them begrudgingly; he will not do his homework; he might even say, “I hate you”. He might stop talking to them for years. He might throw them in a nursing home and tell the staff to call him when they’re dead. He might commit suicide and cause his parents worlds of pain. A trained dog will do none of the above things. Functionally, household pets are infinitely superior to children. Which is greater value to the parents: the child or the dog?

If we are to go by previous posts on the subject some would say the dog!

 

[TK421]

Many contemporary people do indeed value the dog over the child, because the slavering dog is incapable of betrayal. It’s with good reason that Pope Francis has spoken with great alarm about how much income in the 1st world is dumped into pets. It is one of the symptoms of a culture that doesn’t understand that a certain amount of suffering can yield undreamed joy.

 

[fhansen]

According to St Ignatius, on the subject of discerning vocation and other life decisions, evil choices aren’t really considered choices at all. They are dreadful aberrations that nobody ought to even consider. The real choices in life lay in the art of choosing between varying degrees of good choices. If you write an essay, there are many - numberless - correct ways that you can go about in supporting a thesis. Technically speaking, there is the option of intentionally putting falsehoods into the essay as well, but a student in their right mind ought not to consider that a conceivable option.

And yet, among men and angels, there is evil. So apparently many do choose evil. God doesn’t put wickedness out there as a legitimate option. It is simply a radical possibility that exists as a result of being a rational creature. If you are capable of turning to face the awesome power of the light, then by default you’re capable of turning your back to it. The problem with being a puppet of God is that “you” would be an algorithm, no more than the sum of your parts. You wouldn’t really exist. Not in anyway that is worth comparing to what you actually are.

A child will scorn his parents. He will talk back to them; he will ignore their instructions; he will not eat his vegetables; he will roll his eyes; he will go to Mass with them begrudgingly; he will not do his homework; he might even say, “I hate you”. He might stop talking to them for years. He might throw them in a nursing home and tell the staff to call him when they’re dead. He might commit suicide and cause his parents worlds of pain. A trained dog will do none of the above things. Functionally, household pets are infinitely superior to children. Which is greater value to the parents: the child or the dog?

I like this. It would seem that we can not only turn to goodness, but can also continue to improve, to seek the better choice, the “best” out of all possible goods, to never stop pursuing excellence or goodness from whatever point we’re at now. It reminds me of Trent’s teaching that we can continue to grow in justice ,grace to more grace. I’m also reminded that Adam could’ve chosen the wrong path, which he did, turning away from God, or, rather than remaining more or less neutral, so to speak, in his created state, had the option of choosing an even better path, by eating of the Tree of Life.

 

[BlossomingFaith]

Interesting question. I feel like it comes down to the answer that it is not God’s will for us to be puppets. Just like we want our loved ones to really love us, not to be programmed robots who act like they love us, it seems like God wants us to really love Him. So God gives us the choice.

 

[tonyrey]

Interesting question. I feel like it comes down to the answer that it is not God’s will for us to be puppets. Just like we want our loved ones to really love us, not to be programmed robots who act like they love us, it seems like God wants us to really love Him. So God gives us the choice.

The key word is “choice”. The love demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross is at the other extreme from an automatic response.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I do believe that in fearing God, loving God and seeking to do God’s will, we in a sense freely surrender our free will.

 

[JimG]

Interesting question. I feel like it comes down to the answer that it is not God’s will for us to be puppets. Just like we want our loved ones to really love us, not to be programmed robots who act like they love us, it seems like God wants us to really love Him. So God gives us the choice.

Would any parent wish to have children who were automatons, incapable of actual love? Would they rather be able to program them like robots? I doubt it. It’s always exciting when a child first learns to say “no!” indicating he has a mind and a will of his own.

 

[Ignatius]

What’s wrong with being a puppet of God as opposed to having free will?.

God is not a robot, we are made in the image and likeness of God, hence we need to have that level of freedom proper to one made in His Image. If you want to suggest that He should have made up robots instead of fully cognizant, intelligent Human Beings, you can make that suggestion when you see Him.