Not sure that everyone is meant to be catholic

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thomasf

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I’ve had a few discussions lately with protestant friends of mine, one in particular that is very anti-catholic and spouts out the same old anti-catholic arguments that have been around forever. I have had many, long and engaging discussions with her trying to explain the faith and theology to her. Sometimes it is like talking to a brick wall. And it’s very frustrating that I will address all of her questions and accusations, but she just ignores much of the stuff I bring up to her and acts like I never said it. She just won’t address it. Her latest kick is that all christians are wrong in celebrating on Sunday, God’s commandment was to keep holy the sabbath. And yes, I’ve given her many examples and explanations for why we now celebrate on Sundays as christians, she claims she’s ‘discovered the truth’ and that all other christians are wrong. (She even gave some weird excuse that Constantine created a day of rest in 325 on Sunday when he created the catholic church and that’s why we celebrate on sunday instead of the sabbath)

To make an already long story short, she’s absolutely walled herself off from understanding and it gets old trying to talk to her about this stuff. It’s a one way accusation fest, and I am convinced she’ll never listen because she’s so closed off.

This and other experiences leads me to believe that not everyone is meant to be catholic. And that true universal acceptance of the church that Jesus founded isn’t going to happen anytime soon. I actually doubt it will ever be that way. I’ve just run in to too much anit-catholic stuff, too many people dead set against the church with closed hearts, and their minds already made up.
 
this person is exhibiting what Aquinas would call invincible ignorance–absolute refusal to even consider studying with the end of knowing the truth. such a person is, at least at this time, beyond the reach of words or any evangelization style except the example of a lived Catholic faith. This situation does not demonstrate some people are not meant to be Catholic, it demonstrates the lengths humans will go to idolize their own intellect and understanding in opposition to God’s revealed Truth. All people are indeed destined to be united with God, that is the purpose for which they were created. Christ established his Church on earth to make that possible, and he did not order the apostles to evangelize the whole world as a lark, but as an imperative.
 
puzzleannie said:
this person is exhibiting what Aquinas would call invincible ignorance–absolute refusal to even consider studying with the end of knowing the truth.
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I’m not familiar with St. Thomas using that phrase in that manner, but usually (at least in the last couple centuries) what you describe would be vincible, willing, or obstinate ignorance. Invincible ignorance is when someone wants to know the truth, but has not access to it through no fault of theirs.
 
When you say that you are not sure that everyone is maeant to be catholic, (Big C or Little c?) I am not sure you are correct. I think thats like saying that someone is meant to go to not heaven. Eternal punishment is not meant for anyone and admittance into Heaven is an admittance into the undivided body of Christ. This will require an acceptance of His salvation which is ultimately through his church. Perhaps give your friend the hypothetical situation that when she come to the gates of Heaven, if we are right, and she must accept the Catholic church as the one true church would she accept this to get into Heaven or would she chose another path?

I do believe that some people that a good path to Jesus outside of His church, but I have a hard time seeing it to be the best path. (It’s genuine faith, but why settle for part of it?)

I think you need to show her facts that contradict her “revelations” there are even some from the Bible. Never despair, God demands persistance. Stay strong.

Her “walls” are just like the protestant tendency to establish doctrines that were meant to contradict the Catholic Church. Imagine, doing something agains Jesus, simply because you want to divide yourself from some(the once vast majority) of His people. Jesus said he came to bring division(last Sunday, wasn’t it?)

God Bless All, especially your friend,
Michael
 
The good news is that there is only one Baptism, so the Church claims all baptized Christians.

Jesus prayed for unity, so it must be His will that we be in one Church.

But, conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit, so sometimes we have to wait for His timing.
 
My sister has been into the occult for over twenty years. Just last week, she gave her life to Jesus Christ. She has expressed interest in joining the Catholic Church.
If she came such a long way after never wanting to hear anything about Christianity, there is hope for your friend. I know that somewhere she is probably listening to you.
However, it is probably better that you don’t attempt to argue with her about the tenets of our faith. Just live the life. Ask her to respect your views as you respect hers and leave it at that. If she continues to rant about Catholic doctrine, limit your time with her and explain that it hurts you to hear your church attacked. She will probably back off a bit.
I believe that everyone is called to the Catholic Church but I don’t believe it is the only way to get salvation at first. WE are called as Catholics to propagate the faith primarily through the way we live our lives, to draw others to the one true Church. But not everyone will enter that blessed gate.
 
Your right, not everyone is going to convert, not everyone is going to heaven.

There are some people who are going to not go to heaven, it is a sad reality.

Now there is the slight possibility that a person can be saved by rejecting a false impression of what the Catholic Church is, and they would be correct in rejecting that false impression, they would just also have to have their mortal sins forgiven and truly have an honest relationship with Jesus.

I would reject the Catholic Church if we actually believed what Jack Chick says about us, and I would be correct in doing so.

Everyone is meant to be Catholic as God wills everyone to come to knowledge of the truth, it just is not going to happen as lies are so prevelant, pride is so tough and ignorance abounds.We should love everyone anyways and always share God’s message of Salvation.

In Christ
Scylla
 
thomasf said:
This and other experiences leads me to believe that not everyone is meant to be catholic. And that true universal acceptance of the church that Jesus founded isn’t going to happen anytime soon. I actually doubt it will ever be that way. I’ve just run in to too much anit-catholic stuff, too many people dead set against the church with closed hearts, and their minds already made up.
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It does not mean that they are not meant to be Catholic but rather they are choosing not to be currently. It can be really frustrating to discuss things with people who fervently believe all of the hooey that they have read about our faith. I believe that some of them can still be won for the faith eventually by faithful Catholics living our lives as a witness to the faith. I’ve read a lot of conversion stories where the people started out rabidly anti-Catholic.

I’ve had so many people ask me questions since my conversion that give me an opening to share my faith in a non-threatening way. I’m just so filled with joy since I came into the church that it spills out of me in a way that people notice whereever I go. I don’t have lots of “drama” or depression or anything anymore. I can now see the good in most everyone and everything. I just feel like I’m living my life abundantly in the faith like anyone else could, but apparently it is so different from how many others live that people notice and comment to me. I was asked to share my conversion story the year after I entered the church with the next RCIA class. I felt like it was nothing special, but so many people came up and told me how some little part of my journey really touched them in a special way. Who knows what God can use to reach someone!

We may not always know when a seed that we have planted in someone’s life will come to grow. I had very close friends in college who were Catholic. They helped me on the journey, but one of them almost fainted when I called her in 2000 to ask her to be my sponsor. She had no idea that I was steadily moving closer to the church over almost 20 years!
 
If not everyone is meant to be Catholic, the logical corollary to that position is that not everyone is meant to be saved. The idea, being founded upon a form of despair, minimizes the significance of Christ’s sacrifice and, therefore, is itself blasphemous.
 
The problem is, this person thinks she IS saved, by her evangelical definition at least. And she believes every false rumor and accusation made about catholics. I try to give her facts and personal testimonies, explanations, etc, she ignores and dismisses them all. It’s like a little child that sticks her fingers in her ears and refuses to listen.

The sad thing is, she has very catholic views on certain things. She is really into repentance and changing her life to conform to God’s ways, rejecting sin, etc. But when I try to explain to her that she’s more catholic than she thinks, she comes back with stuff about praying to statues and saints and putting pictures of the pope up in church. She even had a big problem with the Nicene Creed. And the thing is, she lets all these false ideas and myths about the catholic church cloud her judgement and refuses to listen because of that.

It’s just very frustrating. No matter how much I try to evangelize her it’s like talking to a rock.

And I didn’t mean she wasn’t meant to be saved or have salvation. Nor did I say that, and I don’t believe you can make that extrapolation.

What I did mean is that some people, no matter how hard you try, will resist for the simple act of resisting. Lead a horse to water, etc. God wants us all to gain salvation, but some people are throwing it away based on their own stubborness.
 
thomasf said:
I’ve had a few discussions lately with protestant friends of mine, one in particular that is very anti-catholic and spouts out the same old anti-catholic arguments that have been around forever. I have had many, long and engaging discussions with her trying to explain the faith and theology to her. Sometimes it is like talking to a brick wall. And it’s very frustrating that I will address all of her questions and accusations, but she just ignores much of the stuff I bring up to her and acts like I never said it. She just won’t address it. Her latest kick is that all christians are wrong in celebrating on Sunday, God’s commandment was to keep holy the sabbath. And yes, I’ve given her many examples and explanations for why we now celebrate on Sundays as christians, she claims she’s ‘discovered the truth’ and that all other christians are wrong. (She even gave some weird excuse that Constantine created a day of rest in 325 on Sunday when he created the catholic church and that’s why we celebrate on sunday instead of the sabbath)

To make an already long story short, she’s absolutely walled herself off from understanding and it gets old trying to talk to her about this stuff. It’s a one way accusation fest, and I am convinced she’ll never listen because she’s so closed off.

This and other experiences leads me to believe that not everyone is meant to be catholic. And that true universal acceptance of the church that Jesus founded isn’t going to happen anytime soon. I actually doubt it will ever be that way. I’ve just run in to too much anit-catholic stuff, too many people dead set against the church with closed hearts, and their minds already made up.
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I agree with you that not everybody is meant to be Roman Catholic, just as I don’t believe that everybody is meant to be a Christian.

But my problem is why Roman Catholics would say that we’re saved, and we’re Christians, but we still need to become Roman Catholic.

Is it just possible that we’re not meant to be Roman Catholics, but are meant to be Christians and that Christian churches are just fine?
 
brosam said:
I agree with you that not everybody is meant to be Roman Catholic, just as I don’t believe that everybody is meant to be a Christian.

But my problem is why Roman Catholics would say that we’re saved, and we’re Christians, but we still need to become Roman Catholic.

Is it just possible that we’re not meant to be Roman Catholics, but are meant to be Christians and that Christian churches are just fine?
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Catholics are Christians. If you consider history, this is like saying that cereal without milk is just fine. It’s so much better with the milk.🙂
 
Tonks40 said:
Catholics are Christians. If you consider history, this is like saying that cereal without milk is just fine. It’s so much better with the milk.🙂
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So, we have God’s word. We have the Holy Spirit. We have the corporate gathering of believers for the preaching and teaching of God’s word. We have the corpoate gathering of believers for worship. We have the Lord’s Supper. We have baptism. We have the edification of the saints. We have accountability.

What’s missing?
 
Your friend is certainly not willing at this time to hear the truth. And I’m not sure she is even following the part of Truth found in most ordinary protestant denominations. I would stop arguing with her about it. Simply pray for her. You have scattered the seed and if she has turned her soul into rocky soil, you can not change that. Pray that her heart will be softened. We will not see the fruits of all our labors, but we certainly must keep working. Often our best work is prayer and sacrifice for the person in question. We were all created for heaven, but Christ’s own words tell us that some, to His anguish and our own, will end up in hell.
 
brosom, I don’t want to take this thread off track, but you asked “what’s missing” so I will answer your question according to my understanding of Catholic teaching as has been handed down from the apostles through the generations. Protestant communities generally do not have valid presbyters (elders, priests) or bishops due to a lack of apostolic succession. Therefore they do not have a valid Eucharist, so rather than truely being presence of our Lord, your “Lord’s Supper” is simply a rememberance as opposed to a real re-presentation of our Lord’s sacrafice at Calvary. These two distinctions are why in most Catholic documents, Protestant communities are reffered to as ecclesial communions rather than Churches.

The Lord established One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church with one visible head (the Pope, bishop of Rome) and one invisible head (Christ the Lord reigning in Heaven). It is surely his desire that all who call on His name would be united in the One Church that He established and partake of the One Bread which is His Body. Sadly due to sin, pride, and greed (on all sides) that unity does not exist. However I regularly pray, in imitation of our Lord in the garden, that we may be one as He and the Father are One. The timing of that unity, which will happen eventually, is in His hands. All I can do is pray with faith and try my best to live my life in a way that credits my faith and my Lord.

Pax et Bonem.
 
brosom, I’d also like to add that you’re missing the other sacraments, which are necessary. Jesus created one body on earth for His people to help them to find salvation, and that is the catholic church. To be outside that church is to turn your back on Christ and the gift He gave us in the church.

And to address your original statement, I’m not sure catholics would agree that you’re ‘saved’. In general, catholics believe that’s up to God to determine your salvation. And that salvation comes through the church. It’s not up to us to say, just to do the best we can with the church’s help and try to attain the state of grace God wants for us.
 
thomasf said:
brosom, I’d also like to add that you’re missing the other sacraments which are necessary.
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What sacraments?, Necessary for what?
Jesus created one body on earth for His people to help them to find salvation, and that is the catholic church.
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And the Bible doesn’t say this.
To be outside that church is to turn your back on Christ and the gift He gave us in the church.
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I am a part of the one true church that Christ founded.
And to address your original statement, I’m not sure catholics would agree that you’re ‘saved’.
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I know for a fact that they wouldn’t.

In addition to my not being a Roman Catholic, Roman Catholics do not believe, for some reason, that one can know for sure that they are saved (which of course begs the question of how they know the dead saints they pray to are in Heaven).

However, are they judging me by Biblical standards? 0r by the their church’s criteria?
And that salvation comes through the church.
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That’s funny, my Bible says that it’s through Christ alone, not the church. Why should I believe you over the Bible?
 
brockmac said:
brosom, I don’t want to take this thread off track, but you asked “what’s missing” so I will answer your question according to my understanding of Catholic teaching as has been handed down from the apostles through the generations. Protestant communities generally do not have valid presbyters (elders, priests) or bishops due to a lack of apostolic succession.
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We do have elders (I know this for a fact, because I am one) and we have pastors, not priests. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that we should bring back the priestly system that Jesus Christ did away with.
Therefore they do not have a valid Eucharist
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“Valid” according to whom, exactly?
so rather than truely being presence of our Lord, your “Lord’s Supper” is simply a rememberance as opposed to a real re-presentation of our Lord’s sacrafice at Calvary.
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There are a couple of problems with this. The first and most obvious is that the Bible says that Jesus ascended to Heaven, where He now sits at the right hand of the Father. It does not say that He ascended to Heaven, but still returns to Earth to become the Eucharist.

The second problem is, why would we “re-present” Christ’s sacrifice, when the Bible says that He died once and for all?
The Lord established One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church with one visible head (the Pope, bishop of Rome)
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You keep saying that, but I’ve yet to see any scripture to show that this is true.
Sadly due to sin, pride, and greed (on all sides) that unity does not exist.
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Thank you for being courageous enough to admit that the Roman Catholic church is guilty of “sin, pride, and greed”. I can’t imagine how well that’s going to sit with your fellow Roman Catholics.
 
Brosam,

You raise good points that have been discussed on this board frequently. You’ll probably be interested in using the Search function at the top of the page to find threads on each of the points you raised. Most will lead you to the Apologetics forum. Some will take you to Liturgy and Sacraments. Others will take you to Sacred Scripture.

Reading through the threads you’ll find other members have raised your points rather eloquently over the years here. The answers to your questions will be in those threads and the good news is, you can always add to the discussions!

For the sake of keeping this particular thread ‘on-topic’ I’d like to respond to your previous post on this topic:
I agree with you that not everybody is meant to be Roman Catholic, just as I don’t believe that everybody is meant to be a Christian.
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Scripture shows everybody is meant to be a Christian.

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and **let every one of you **be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
But my problem is why Roman Catholics would say that we’re saved, and we’re Christians, but we still need to become Roman Catholic.
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Christians of trinitarian baptism are saved through that baptism, in that at that moment they enter into the family of God through Jesus Christ, His Son, and now, our brother.

Baptism is a rite of initiation into Christ’s church. It’s the beginning, but it is not the end. Jesus left other sources of grace to help us in our journey home to heaven. Those are the sacraments that you’ll find discussed frequently in those other forums I mentioned.
Is it just possible that we’re not meant to be Roman Catholics, but are meant to be Christians and that Christian churches are just fine?
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Jesus established One church, and He directed the apostles to bring all people into it. Our mission is the same as theirs. All humanity is called to Jesus Christ, but not all will respond to the call. It is by the grace of God that any of us are saved but that doesn’t dismiss us from our mission to proclaim the Truth about Jesus Christ to all people.

For us Catholics, that Truth, is about the fullness of the church He established, inviting every person we encounter to receive the actual Graces He continues to bestow upon His faithful. There is no greater gift He gives to us than to receive Him - body, blood, soul, and divinity - through the Eucharist. He intimately gives himself completely to us through that sacrament and it is such a joyous moment we Catholics want all our Christian brothers and sisters to experience the true joy of receiving Him in that manner.

As for all Christian churches being ‘just fine’, well, why settle for ‘fine’ when you can have ‘excellent’? The Christian churches fulfill certain aspects of the Christian life but it is incomplete. There is so much more to being a follower of Christ. Jesus really is present in this day through the Eucharist. Christians of other denominations seem focused on Christ’s final return, as if He ascended into heaven on that one day and has been in heaven ever since. Catholics know without a doubt, through our experience of receiving the sacraments (particularly the Eucharist) that Jesus is here, now, in ever Catholic Church, in every tabernacle. We can sit with him, physically, at any hour of any day through eucharistic adoration.

We hear Christians ask, “What if Jesus was here today?”. The Catholic response is, “He is here.” We don’t have to imagine what it would be like to walk with Him, talk with Him. We do it at every mass.
 
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