Nothing unclean shall enter into Heaven

[JoeFreedom]

Okay, hear me out. We know that from scripture that nothing unclean will enter into Heaven, and that any attachment to sin must be removed from us prior to entering into the Beatific Vision. We are called to be holy, and to not sin. We know that it is possible, for Mary never sinned, right? But we also know it is quite near impossible for the rest of us since we are not full of grace. But we know that although we strive to obtain perfect holiness (in the strictest sense; do God’s will here on earth), but we know we fall short. If the vast majority of us, including the saints, were (and those of us currently living, are) sinners, with attachments to sin (otherwise we wouldn’t sin), how can we know that these saints are in Heaven and not Purgatory?

We know St. Augustine (correct me if I’m thinking about the wrong saint), said something like “Give me chastity Lord, but not yet”. He obviously had a lot of penance to do for the lusting he admitted to. Part of purgatory is also to pay the temporal parts the sins, and if we have done a great deal in our life (e.g.: St. Augustine), how do we formally know as the Church they are in Heaven?

What about the man besides Jesus on the cross who believed in Him before he died and Jesus said today he would be with Him in paradise? Does that presume he went directly to Heaven?

And for the rest of us on earth, who try hard to be obedient and well, just don’t always cut it, how can we expect to live perfect lives not sinning when we know we don’t have the grace to do so? Is it possible to not sin and not to have attachment to sin?

PS: I’m not questioning the authority of the Church, I’m just trying to understand?

 

[JoeFreedom]

True and agreed on both points:
All of us are called to be saints.
All of us are sinners.

To the second point, if we are all sinners, if we committed even one venial sin prior to entering into Heaven, we couldn’t possibly go straight there… we’d take a detour off into Purgatory, since nothing clean will enter into Heaven. So if we are all sinners, won’t we all (those who die in God’s grace) take that detour?

To the first point, would someone in Purgatory technically be considered to be in Heaven, because there are only TWO final destinations?

 

[semper_catholicus]

Yes. We venerate Dismas as a Saint in the Church now.

 

[Seagull]

That’s a lot of questions.

I hope your not worried about your own very soul.

When’s the last time you went to confession…?
Maybe, that, will answer some things for you.

 

[Kei]

Not necessarily, as the language doesn’t have commas. If Jesus said it like “I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise”. Meanwhile if it was supposed to be like, “I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise”, then it would imply that maybe. Not sure.

The Church knows as we are guided by the Holy Ghost. That does bring a good question, when we canonize a saint, does that mean they went directly to Heaven or does it mean they currently, when canonized, were in Heaven (as opposed to purgatory)?

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Since we don’t know how long a time one spends in Purgatory or if time even exists in Purgatory, who is to say that Dismas did not experience Purgatory before entering Heaven on the day of our Lord’s crucifixion?

 

[2towers]

I’m not questioning the authority of the Church, I’m just trying to understand?

Nothing wrong with asking Joe! This is where purgatory comes in. Most of those going to heaven will have to spend a few moments or so there. Nothing wrong with it, and your right, perfection or anything close to it, is a pretty tall standard. Purgatory came into being as a direct result of God’s mercy for us.

Another thing to keep in mind, is redemptive suffering. We we get old, most of us experience pain. This in of itself is a blessing. We are told by many of the Saints that suffering on earth is much more efficacious. Redemptive suffering, prayer of all kinds, especially the rosary, good deeds, they all work, to offset the stain of sin.

Amazon kindle and Amazon unlimited have all sorts of e-books at low cost about the Saints, and about purgatory. I would urge you to explore some of this.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Purgatory is where most of us will lose the attachment to sin, very few attain that in this life.

 

[fhansen]

Look at it this way: “Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God”. “Seeing” God is the goal, but to the extent that we’re still attracted to other, lesser, created things, a path Adam set humanity on, we don’t even really want to see God yet. We still prefer ourselves to Him, as the catechism teaches that Adam did. So our purification, our perfection, comes in willing the right thing. Here’s a teaching from the catechism.
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

So God in His mercy simply wants the very best for us, but, wanting us to freely will it, He won’t override our wills; He wants us to participate in our justice, because that participation, that “ownership”, is one aspect of our justice. And Augustine, BTW, had pretty much given up on delaying his being fully oriented to God by the time he wrote the words you quoted, but even if not, purgatory would still be employed as God’s merciful place of final purification/perfection for him. Here are other words from the famous Doctor:
"But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

 

[thistle]

If the vast majority of us, including the saints, were (and those of us currently living, are) sinners, with attachments to sin (otherwise we wouldn’t sin), how can we know that these saints are in Heaven and not Purgatory?

We know with certainty that all those canonised are in Heaven and not Purgatory.

My question is why is it a problem going to Purgatory first. When I die and if I find myself in Purgatory I will be happy because it means I have been saved!

 

[Gorgias]

Part of purgatory is also to pay the temporal parts the sins, and if we have done a great deal in our life (e.g.: St. Augustine), how do we formally know as the Church they are in Heaven?

Are you asking a temporal question? That is, “how do we formally know that Augustine is already in heaven?”…?

how can we expect to live perfect lives not sinning

“Nothing unclean will enter into Heaven” is not equivalent to “you cannot sin on earth and enter heaven.” Your premise falls apart, right there…

So if we are all sinners, won’t we all (those who die in God’s grace) take that detour?

What if we sinned, were baptized, and died before sinning again?

would someone in Purgatory technically be considered to be in Heaven, because there are only TWO final destinations?

No. If I’m riding a train, and I haven’t reached my final destination, that doesn’t imply that any intermediate destination along the way can be called my final destination.

If Jesus said it like “I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise”. Meanwhile if it was supposed to be like, “I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise”, then it would imply that maybe.

The first way doesn’t make sense, grammatically. “I am telling you” is the verb – in the present tense. What could it possibly mean to use the “today” in that way? He’s already pointing out that He’s telling him, right then and there, at that moment! If He could say “I’m telling you yesterday…” or “I’m telling you tomorrow…”, then it might make sense. Since neither of those make sense (in your first way of understanding them), we’re only left with the meaning “I tell you – today you will be…”

 

[Frend]

Don’t get caught up on the wording.

St. Dismas was also killed and suffered on the cross, be it much later than Jesus.

He also had his legs broken.

That was his suffering that allowed him to be admitted right into heaven after death.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Well I think as a faithful Catholic I can only hope in God’s grace. I can never really know. He’s the judge so I’ll leave that to Him. I go to confession regularly. I’m not too worried but I know I’m a sinner like everyone else.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Very true about the comma, it changed the meaning.

 

[JoeFreedom]

That’s been my opinion anways. For what it’s worth.

 

[JoeFreedom]

If I die and go to Purgatory I will ne rejoicing! Only one place to go from there. Sure I hope I go straight to Heaven but I’m still a work in progress.

 

[Kei]

Have you never heard the expression, “I declare unto you today that…” or “Today I declare unto you…” ?

 

[PJM]

Is it possible to not sin and not to have attachment to sin?

YES it is. But ONLY with much prayer and acceptance of God’s Grace