Novus Ordo versus the Tridentine Mass, arguments that the sacrifice is still valid?

[Chis]

I have a friend who has started attending Mass with SSPX communities because he always preferred the Latin rite, he sends me lots of tracks about the current crisis in the Roman Church and lately to doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass is there an article or track that I can send him to refute his argument?

 

[otjm]

Send him your prayers, as it is highly likely nothing else will impact him. Getting into an argument with someone who knows so little about the Church as to buy into the blather he is buying into is a bit like mud wrestling with a pig. You get dirty and the pig loves it.

I have yet to meet anyone who has bought into such claptrap who is not emotionally committed to their position. One does not argue with emotions. One can have a logical discussion with someone else, if the other person sets aside emotions. I have yet to find anyone giveing out with the claptrap to even slow down enough to actually listen.

Note: I am not saying such a person is bad, or evil, or of evil intent. They had little substantial catechetical knowledge before they went down the rabbit hole, and they appear to have no ability to calmly, quietly and openly listen.

In all seriousness, pray for them - lots. and let God deal with what God can deal with, as I can almost unequivocally guarantee you are not going to change their mind by getting into what will quickly turn into an argument.

There is a difference between a debate and an argument; arguments are fueled by emotion. That’s a no-win. Prayer, on the other hand, can ameliorate your concern.

 

[Chis]

Thank you for your reply and it is true I have not engaged in the discussion because I know I don’t know enough to dissuade someone from the vortex they have put themselves in without getting sucked into it myself nonetheless prayer has led me here to at least try to redirect him.
Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Chis]

Thank you, it’s a start.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

OP, just in consideration of the thread title alone, please be aware that it’s against forum rules to pit the different forms of Mass against one another. I realize that’s not what you’re doing, but the thread title suggested otherwise at first glance.

 

[Chis]

My apologies result of not thinking, thank you for the reminder.

 

[pnewton]

I think the logic is rather simple. The Church says it is valid. Jesus said that what the Church binds on Earth is bound in Heaven. So to say that it is invalid, you have to deny that the Church has said it is valid, a rather precarious proposition that almost mandates sedevacantism, or deny the promise Jesus made about the authority of the Church, and thus cease to be Catholic.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

True trivia tidbit: The SSPX recognizes the Novus Ordo Missae as valid provided that the matter, form and intention are correct. They also recognize Pope Francis but technically are in an irregular canonical situation and they are not sedevacantist.

Also, beware of any sedevacantist material. Avoid it like the plague.

I hope this helps.

 

[pnewton]

The SSPX recognizes the Novus Ordo Missae as valid… they are not sedevacantist.

I am glad you pointed this out. I believe the two must be seen as a consistency issue. Belief in one, or disbelief, results in the other. I note that the first post mentioned the friend going to the SSPX. It is a little odd that he questioned the validity of the Mass where the SSPX does not, but it is not unique. Some of the original SSPX priests broke and founded the SSPV over this issue.

 

[commenter]

Margaret_Ann:

The SSPX recognizes the Novus Ordo Missae as valid… they are not sedevacantist.

I am glad you pointed this out. I believe the two must be seen as a consistency issue. Belief in one, or disbelief, results in the other. I note that the first post mentioned the friend going to the SSPX. It is a little odd that he questioned the validity of the Mass where the SSPX does not, but it is not unique.

Sedevacantism is a matter of degree, and can vary among individuals in the same organization. Likewise, you may have some individuals who say the new Mass usually does not have proper intent, so it usually is invalid.

So while the organization’s official position is important, you don’t meet the organization. You meet Fr. X.

 

[JM3]

Chapter II of Session 21 of the Council of Trent

It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, it may ordain,–or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circumstances, times, and places.

 

[Aulef]

I also go to the traditional Latin Mass (aka tridentine). I don’t have an answer, but maybe I can help with some information.

Regarding the Eucharist, if form and matter are respected, the Sacrament is valid.

Regarding sacrifice, if the victim is actually completely destroyed, then it happened.

Regarding intentions and objectives of the Mass, I think it is valid if it is: a) latreutical (sacrifice offered to workship God), b) expiating (sacrifice offered to expiate our sins), c) eucharistic (sacrifice offered as thanksgiving to God), and d) impetrating (sacrifice offered to ask for graces or something temporal thing that would be good to our soul). These four features were taken from Saint Alphonsus Liguori.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the victim must be infinitely good in order to please God. This means the victim must be Jesus Christ Himself. Thus, the Eucharist must be valid and the victim offered must be Him.

 

[mVitus]

When you say superior, in which way do you mean it? In the way that you believe it’s easier to be reverent at it or in the way that the graces received from it are inherently more?

 

[Fauken]

Huh? I don’t believe the SSPX argues that the OF is invalid. The SSPV and MCRI do, but not the SSPX. The SSPX argues that Vatican II was not the dogmatic council the Vatican seems to be treating it as, and that what it produced is optional to follow. Although that’s admittedly putting it a bit more nicely than they would probably say it.

 

[commenter]

Huh? I don’t believe the SSPX argues that the OF is invalid. The SSPV and MCRI do, but not the SSPX.

There is the official position, but there’s also a spectrum of possible variation, or degrees of opinion among individuals.

 

[Gabika50]

We can only argue such things where the padres are plentiful as is Mass. In areas where we have little choice, we do not split such hairs- we are luck to have a priest and not try to turn him against is peers or his parishioners.