Now can we get a New Translation of the Our Father?

[Jonatello]

has anyone else mentioned this, or felt this way?

My whole life, there’s a line in the Our Father that has really bothered me.

“And lead us not into temptation”

As much as I try to reason it away, understanding its probably semantics, I still can’t avoid the inner feeling that hits me: God leading us into temptation unless we ask Him not to. God setting a trap.

Obviously this must be wrong, but the wording is so poor for today’s language, I can’t seem to avoid the mental image when I hear us asking God not to lead us into temptation.

Also, I’m not sure why the word “but” comes before “deliver us from evil”

That also messes with my head.

I propose:

“Lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil.”

thoughts?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

has anyone else mentioned this, or felt this way?

My whole life, there’s a line in the Our Father that has really bothered me.

“And lead us not into temptation”

As much as I try to reason it away, understanding its probably semantics, I still can’t avoid the inner feeling that hits me: God leading us into temptation unless we ask Him not to. God setting a trap.

Obviously this must be wrong, but the wording is so poor for today’s language, I can’t seem to avoid the mental image when I hear us asking God not to lead us into temptation.

Also, I’m not sure why the word “but” comes before “deliver us from evil”

That also messes with my head.

I propose:

“Lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil.”

thoughts?

The Our Father is scriptural so we need to look to what it says in the original language there.

Most, if not all, of the New Testament was written in Greek. So you would need to look to the original Greek to see what it says.

Also the official Bible for the Church would be the Latin Vulgate, so you would also need to look to that to see what it says there.

I believe the current translation of the Our Father fits with both of those.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

has anyone else mentioned this, or felt this way?

My whole life, there’s a line in the Our Father that has really bothered me.

“And lead us not into temptation”

As much as I try to reason it away, understanding its probably semantics, I still can’t avoid the inner feeling that hits me: God leading us into temptation unless we ask Him not to. God setting a trap.

Obviously this must be wrong, but the wording is so poor for today’s language, I can’t seem to avoid the mental image when I hear us asking God not to lead us into temptation.

Also, I’m not sure why the word “but” comes before “deliver us from evil”

That also messes with my head.

I propose:

“Lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil.”

thoughts?

I like your editing but since the Our Father is in the Bible as Jesus’ specific instruction on how we should pray…



it may never happen.

 

[TheDoctor]

has anyone else mentioned this, or felt this way?

My whole life, there’s a line in the Our Father that has really bothered me.

“And lead us not into temptation”

As much as I try to reason it away, understanding its probably semantics, I still can’t avoid the inner feeling that hits me: God leading us into temptation unless we ask Him not to. God setting a trap.thoughts?

The prayer my dear friend is fine. Your interpretation of the phrase is wrong.

The prayer asks God to give us the strength to overcome the temptations that Satan will place before us. For a quick read, see:
fatherbillsblog.com/heart/2007/10/what-does-lead-.html
biac.org.uk/galanswer17.htm

 

[ProVobis]

But how far back do we go?

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

 

[TheRealJuliane]

But how far back do we go?

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Oh! Those are just lovely! ( mean the Aramaic ones)



Not so much this one:

The New Testament in Modern English (1963, tr. Phillips)

According to the New Testament, the Lord’s Prayer is the name given to the only form of prayer Christ taught his disciples (Matt. 6:9-13). The closing doxology of the prayer is omitted by Luke (11:2-4), also in the R.V. of Matt. 6:13. This prayer contains no allusion to the atonement of Christ, nor to the offices of the Holy Spirit. All Christian prayer is based on the Lord’s Prayer, but is also guided by that of His prayer in Gethsemane and of the prayer recorded by John 17. The Lord’s Prayer is now comprehensive, the simplest and most universal form of prayer.

Our Heavenly Father, may your name be honored; 

May your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. 

Give us this day the bread we need, 

Forgive us what we owe to you, as we have also forgiven those who owe anything to us. 

Keep us clear of temptation, and save us from evil.

 

[markomalley]

has anyone else mentioned this, or felt this way?

My whole life, there’s a line in the Our Father that has really bothered me.

“And lead us not into temptation”

As much as I try to reason it away, understanding its probably semantics, I still can’t avoid the inner feeling that hits me: God leading us into temptation unless we ask Him not to. God setting a trap.

Obviously this must be wrong, but the wording is so poor for today’s language, I can’t seem to avoid the mental image when I hear us asking God not to lead us into temptation.

Also, I’m not sure why the word “but” comes before “deliver us from evil”

That also messes with my head.

I propose:

“Lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil.”

thoughts?

How else do you propose to translate: Et ne nos inducas in tentationem? Or καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, for that matter? πειρασμόν means “a trial” (as in to prove whether or not you will stay faithful or not; i.e., temptation)

If you can think of a better translation for the above, please propose it. Otherwise, I would think you should work on making your feelings line up with doctrine, rather than the other way around.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This might be a good place to ask:

Are we closer to the correct wording:

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Or the Protestant’s version:

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

 

[Cristiano]

But how far back do we go?

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

First let me state that I am completely ignorant about the details of the Aramaic version. However, my concern is with the dating of the Aramaic version. While the original prayer probably was not in Greek, the oldest written document is still in Greek. My understanding is that the written Aramaic versions were at a later time and so they could have been modified for different reasons including gnostic theology. Are the Aramaic versions coming from a book that has been defined as divinely inspired? I do not know how the Aramaic version looks like in the Qorbono, but I think that I will take a peek at that and will try to see how it goes. My skepticism simply comes from me being ignorant.

 

[markomalley]

First let me state that I am completely ignorant about the details of the Aramaic version. However, my concern is with the dating of the Aramaic version. While the original prayer probably was not in Greek, the oldest written document is still in Greek. My understanding is that the written Aramaic versions were at a later time and so they could have been modified for different reasons including gnostic theology. Are the Aramaic versions coming from a book that has been defined as divinely inspired? I do not know how the Aramaic version looks like in the Qorbono, but I think that I will take a peek at that and will try to see how it goes. My skepticism simply comes from me being ignorant.

The Aramaic says “trial” (just like the Greek – and the Latin)

See this Aramaic interlinear: peshitta.org/pdf/Mattich6.pdf

 

[Jonatello]

The Our Father is scriptural so we need to look to what it says in the original language there.

Most, if not all, of the New Testament was written in Greek. So you would need to look to the original Greek to see what it says.

Also the official Bible for the Church would be the Latin Vulgate, so you would also need to look to that to see what it says there.

I believe the current translation of the Our Father fits with both of those.

Are you saying the idea of asking God not to lead you into temptation (implying that He would) is closer to the meaning expressed in the original languages than “lead us away from temptation”?

We should all know proper translation can’t rely on verbatim word-for-word, but must take into account implied meaning.

 

[ProVobis]

First let me state that I am completely ignorant about the details of the Aramaic version. However, my concern is with the dating of the Aramaic version. While the original prayer probably was not in Greek, the oldest written document is still in Greek. My understanding is that the written Aramaic versions were at a later time and so they could have been modified for different reasons including gnostic theology. Are the Aramaic versions coming from a book that has been defined as divinely inspired? I do not know how the Aramaic version looks like in the Qorbono, but I think that I will take a peek at that and will try to see how it goes. My skepticism simply comes from me being ignorant.

I don’t know either. The article, however, does mention that Matthew is a translation in very crude Greek which contains supposedly gross inaccuracies. How would they know this without being convinced one is closer to the original Aramaic than the earliest Greek version? The original Lord’s Prayer was, of course, dictated so even errors in the original written Aramaic could have been not totally 100% accurate either.

Also there were Latin versions (Vetus Latina) available but there were supposedly of very poor quality, which St. Jerome tried to make sense of, using the then-available Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic documents as his guide.

Let us know what you find out from the Qorbono; I would be most curious.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Are you saying the idea of asking God not to lead you into temptation (implying that He would) is closer to the meaning expressed in the original languages than “lead us away from temptation”?

We should all know proper translation can’t rely on verbatim word-for-word, but must take into account implied meaning.

As pointed out by reply #4, it is your interpretation that is wrong.

Again, this is a translation of Scripture which is inspired. This is the prayer that Jesus gave us.

 

[Jonatello]

As pointed out by reply #4, it is your interpretation that is wrong.

Again, this is a translation of Scripture which is inspired. This is the prayer that Jesus gave us.

but Jesus didn’t speak modern English.

in today’s language that Americans speak, “follow not the truck” is a request for someone not to follow the truck…its not a request to follow the not-truck.

 

[Cristiano]

Are you saying the idea of asking God not to lead you into temptation (implying that He would) is closer to the meaning expressed in the original languages than “lead us away from temptation”?

We should all know proper translation can’t rely on verbatim word-for-word, but must take into account implied meaning.

Temptation comes from outside ourselves, and it can only be permitted by God. If God does not allow for it then we cannot be tempted. There is a big difference between the idea of God tempting us and the idea of Him allowing us to be tempted. The implied meaning in the prayer cannot simply be explained by one small sentence and that is why we have the CCC to help us out (Par. 2846 to 2849).

 

[TimothyH]

Just email the Jehova’s Witnesses. They’ll retranslate it any way you like.

-Tim-

 

[Warrenton]

but Jesus didn’t speak modern English.

in today’s language that Americans speak, “follow not the truck” is a request for someone not to follow the truck…its not a request to follow the not-truck.

If that’s the problem, there is a wonderful solution to it…

 

[Jonatello]

Temptation comes from outside ourselves, and it can only be permitted by God. If God does not allow for it then we cannot be tempted. There is a big difference between the idea of God tempting us and the idea of Him allowing us to be tempted. The implied meaning in the prayer cannot simply be explained by one small sentence and that is why we have the CCC to help us out (Par. 2846 to 2849).

But exactly. Allowing for something is different than leading us into it.

Why would we ask Him not to lead us into temptation? Why would He ever lead us into temptation?

“verb me not” in today’s language pretty much always means “do not verb me”

i’ve never heard an ER patient with a broken leg ask a doctor “break not my leg”

 

[Digitonomy]

I agree we should retranslate the Our Father, although I would argue the bigger issue is translating it into contemporary English to remove the archaic forms, like “who art in heaven”. However, inertia being what it is, and other denominations almost universally retaining the older language, I don’t expect the Church in the English world to make any efforts in this direction.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

but Jesus didn’t speak modern English.

in today’s language that Americans speak, “follow not the truck” is a request for someone not to follow the truck…its not a request to follow the not-truck.

Right, but the English you are reading is a translation of the inspired Greek.

Jesus most likely did not speak Greek but that is the inspired text.

So to translate it we must take the Greek and translate it into English.

Have you done this?

Or are you taking the current English translation and changing it to fit what you think it should say?