Nudity, Catholicism, and Culture

  • Thread starter Thread starter GWofVA
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I would like the OP to respond to Pug’s post about how comfortable she’d supposedly be with her 18 year old daughter walking around nude with her nude husband and nude 15 year old son present. (Obviously hypothetical.)

Since you said that your sons need to be taught the function of breasts, and I assume your 18 year old daughter isn’t lactating…I don’t understand the point.

If your daughter needs to be taught that she isn’t a plaything, is that supposed to be ‘absorbed’ by her dad and brother not making sexual advances toward her while she lounges around nude?

Why are you confident that all family members in each home would behave in a moral way and not feel objectified by being ‘used’ as a lesson for other family members? If a child was uncomfortable being nude with his or her parents, would you insist upon it anyway? What if a child was uncomfortable seeing his or her parent nude? Would you insist they continue to look so as to be desensitized??
 
I have a lot of posts to answer so I’m gonna try to condense some of the more important replies into one or two messages. If anyone wants something that I don’t address answered, please let me know.

setter:
Interesting and revealing that you interpret the virtue of modesty in dress and thought as “lack of maturity” …
Click to expand...
I am sorry if my statement may have been misinterpreted so as to mean that modesty was a “lack of maturity.” What this phrase refered to was some people’s inablility to see nudity as anything other than the butt of a joke. Even in a forum thread where I’m trying to hold a simple debate, people cannot help but make some kind of immature joke about public nudity. Thus, I was saying that some people were immature in how they reacted to public nudity and if that is how they react on a forum then there is no way that this society is ready for wholesome, natural nudity in public.

pug:
A couple of people have mentioned that Adam and Eve clothed themselves. I would like to add that God clothed them himself. He gave them clothes of skins that he had made a bit further on in Genesis.
Click to expand...
Let us also remember that they went from living in a perfect place to a downfallen earth. Couldn’t God’s fashioning of clothing for them be more of a way of protecting His most precious creations from the vicious elements which they never had to contend with before?

Neo Canaan:
What’s wrong with solutions like that?
Click to expand...
Mostly, we are an imperfect species who want our own way. Because of this, people are usually divided into two camps on every subject, each with a viewpoint that they aren’t willing to part with. Thus, in order to make progress and avoid a stalemate, we compromise with eachother on some topics to reach a semi-pleasing conclusion. If we did not, then we might become like the Communists who do not compromise and allow no leeway for discussion or compromise. Only when God creates the new Jerusalem will a perfect world be established where everone agrees with their neighbor. But until then, we compromise.

deb1:
As far as being nude in front of one’s children…We have to prepare our child to live in the surrounding culture. The child needs to understand what is normal behavior in our society so they don’t get taken advantage of or seen as odd. Like it or not, our culture does seem to equate nudity with sexuality. If a child does not understand this then he/she could be hurt by people outside of the family.
Click to expand...
We only have to teach them to put up with the surrounding culture unless we change it. Sure, there are bad things that we need to keep them safe from and I am not saying that we keep any secrets from them. What I am saying is that we need to change the society around us into one that they don’t have to put up with. You mention that you don’t want your children “seen as odd.” Well, I hate to mention it but just by being Catholic, they are already bucking the societal system in which we live. Society says abortion is alright; we say life is precious. Society says smoking is alright; we say our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Society says that sexuality is a good marketing tool; we say the body is special and needs to be treated with respect. As you can see, we are already going against the grain of what is considered normal in our society. Right now, Catholics all across the country are trying to change what this society believes is normal, and what I am presenting is just another battle, except mine is against the sexualization of the human body. And that battle needs to begin with the realization by Catholics that nudity and the human body is a normal, wholesome thing when presented in a non-provocative circumstance. And because of this, it can be worn instead of clothing around those near family members who are willing to accept it.

I’ll address more of your comments in my next post.

Peace in Christ, gw
 
Hello,

fix:
I am saying frequent nudity for the sake of being nude in an attempt to desensitize children is wrong headed and will not achieve the ends you desire.
Click to expand...
Lets consider the term “desensitize” for a moment. As far as my dictionary is concerned, to desensitize is to lessen one’s sensitivity to something . . . sounds about right. But this provides that that person has a sensitivity to the subject in question in the first place. Now a child, when around his own parents or people he trusts, seems to be devoid of any such sensitivity. Why else do they commonly run around naked after their baths? Why don’t they throw up their little hands when they are about to be photographed nude on a bear skin rug and say, “Stop mommy! I don’t think this is appropriate”? I know this sounds silly but even in real life you know when your child is not comfortable. Frankly, this sensitivity which you think children have towards nudity simply does not exist. Now there are exceptions to everything, and I’m not saying that this is a perfect solution to the sexualization problem; however, I think it might be a good place to start.
IMO, your reasoning is very common from what I read from several on this site. It seems to be along the lines that modesty is mostly culturally established and is licit simply because it is cultural. If I am incorrect in attributing this to you please correct me.
Click to expand...
When I saw the word “licit,” I was unsure what you meant so I looked it up in my dictionary and found that it is defined as “permitted by law.” Is this what you meant. I don’t mean to be dense but I just want to know that when I am giving an answer that it addresses the question as best as possible.
The subjective part does not mean anything goes simply because some culture says so at any one point in history.
Click to expand...
Oh but it does. Why else would there be nude beaches in one country (which they consider modest) and a ban on them in another if the culture did not dictate it?

Thank you for all of your patience. I will continue answering your comments in my next post.

Peace in Jesus, gw
 
Princess_Abby:
I would like the OP to respond to Pug’s post about how comfortable she’d supposedly be with her 18 year old daughter walking around nude with her nude husband and nude 15 year old son present.
Click to expand...
Before we progress any further, I would like to point out that I am not a woman; just a very concerned guy. I see the society around us and it makes me wonder what will it be like when our kids have grown. I don’t want my children to have to deal with a tainted society. I want them to know that the body is good, wholesome, and natural not just because we tell them it is, but because it truly is. And when I hear that so many Catholics look at the body as 10% beautiful and 90% temptation towards sin, I realize that we are only fueling the flames which bombard us every single day. IMO, The best place to begin this change is in the home with their family. People who will love them and respect them and show that sin does not automatically occur when the psychological defenses attributed to clothes are dropped.
Since you said that your sons need to be taught the function of breasts, and I assume your 18 year old daughter isn’t lactating…I don’t understand the point.
Click to expand...
The sons would hopefully learn this lesson from their mother. This would establish respect in their minds for all women and that would include their sister.
If your daughter needs to be taught that she isn’t a plaything, is that supposed to be ‘absorbed’ by her dad and brother not making sexual advances toward her while she lounges around nude?
Click to expand...
Would this same father and son make sexual advances towards her when she was lounging fully clothed? The absence of clothing does not turn men into animals no more than putting on clothes prevents lust. For a family to live without clothing requires a great deal of trust and if one parent thinks that the other cannot handle the responsibility, then this would not be a wise choice for them. Just like trust is the foundation of every relationship (no matter whether it is between father-son, mother-daughter, or any other combination), to live in such a fashion is no different. The people are the same, the surroundings are the same, there is only an absence of clothing, not love.
Why are you confident that all family members in each home would behave in a moral way and not feel objectified by being ‘used’ as a lesson for other family members?
Click to expand...
If a parent doesn’t feel objectified when they teach their children when to wear clothes, why would the situation be any different without them? The mother does her housework, the children do their homework, the father does his financial work. Nothing changes, except the subtle idea of respect is being constantly being cultivated in their minds as they see the body as normal and, when the time comes, not a sexual toy. As far as being “used” as a lesson, let me draw a parallel. When a child is punished for doing something bad, does their punishment ever stay private? A child is grounded, a sibling finds out. This in turn subconsciously teaches the other child, “Do Not do this, or YOU will suffer the Same fate!!!” Now whether you mean to or not, that punished child is being used to teach a lesson to their siblings who ascertain that that act is wrong. Do you mean to use them, no. Does this actually happen, yes. Except in a nude household, no one is being singled out, everyone is participating and trusting eachother.
If a child was uncomfortable being nude with his or her parents, would you insist upon it anyway? What if a child was uncomfortable seeing his or her parent nude? Would you insist they continue to look so as to be desensitized??
Click to expand...
No. Everyone has free will and if a child decides to go clothed in a nude household or nude in a clothed household, that is their choice.
Just because a person is nude does not make them boorish. If their child is uncomfortable with the current situation then certain compromises (which should be determined within the family) will need to be made.
As far as desensitization goes, this refers to the loss of sensitivity toward something . . . provided there is a sensitivity toward it in the first place. If a child is raised in a household of clothes wearing people, would they think there was any other way to live? Vice versa. If a child lived in a household of nude people, wouldn’t they think that every other house was just the same way? In either case, no desensitization occurs. Just a different way of being raised. The child is going to be confronted with nudity eventually, why not show them that it is good rather than just telling them. The question will come . . . eventually. No matter how you live or where you are at. How better to confront the sexualization of our society (which will soon be comprised of these very children) than to start in our own homes?

Peace in Jesus, gw
 
GWofVA said:
Lets consider the term “desensitize” for a moment. As far as my dictionary is concerned, to desensitize is to lessen one’s sensitivity to something . . . sounds about right. But this provides that that person has a sensitivity to the subject in question in the first place. Now a child, when around his own parents or people he trusts, seems to be devoid of any such sensitivity. Why else do they commonly run around naked after their baths? Why don’t they throw up their little hands when they are about to be photographed nude on a bear skin rug and say, “Stop mommy! I don’t think this is appropriate”?
Click to expand...
Well, I think because they are below the age of reason. You seemed to argue that this display by children is evidence of innocence as in the way it was intended to be. I say that they are not mature yet. Christ said we ought to be like children. He did not say we ought to be childish.
I know this sounds silly but even in real life you know when your child is not comfortable. Frankly, this sensitivity which you think children have towards nudity simply does not exist. Now there are exceptions to everything, and I’m not saying that this is a perfect solution to the sexualization problem; however, I think it might be a good place to start.
Click to expand...
They need to grow in wisdom and maturity. That includes training in virtues like modesty.
When I saw the word “licit,” I was unsure what you meant so I looked it up in my dictionary and found that it is defined as “permitted by law.” Is this what you meant. I don’t mean to be dense but I just want to know that when I am giving an answer that it addresses the question as best as possible.
Click to expand...
I used it as in morally acceptable. Not breaking the divine or natural law or moral law.
Oh but it does. Why else would there be nude beaches in one country (which they consider modest) and a ban on them in another if the culture did not dictate it?
Click to expand...
That is exactly my point. That some places allow it does not mean it is morally licit. That is why culture is not the sole determinant of modesty. Many places allow all manner of immodest dress and behavior. That the civil law allows such does not mean it is in accord with the moral law.
 
I think it would definitely send mixed messages to our children if we walked around nude in the home, regardless of what morals we nurture.
 
Hi,
Well, I think because they are below the age of reason.
Click to expand...
If sensitivity is acquired by age, then it is not an inherent trait of the human personality. That means that it is learned from somewhere; thus, there is no natural propensity in the human person towards being dressed.
You seemed to argue that this display by children is evidence of innocence as in the way it was intended to be. I say that they are not mature yet. Christ said we ought to be like children. He did not say we ought to be childish.
Click to expand...
First, my comments were in regard to the inherent lack of “sensitivity” towards nudity which many claim to be inherent in people. Secondly, it is interesting that you equate being nude with being childish. Yet it is also interesting how earlier you claimed that it is quite acceptable to paint the nude (a task which requires the study of a nude model). Which is it? You cannot say both things are correct, otherwise you contradict yourself. Here lies the root of the problem. In our modern interrpretation of modesty, people want to say nudity is all right in works of art, and then turning around and saying that one should cover yourself or you will cause sin. To have a truly unified Church, we need to stop this contradiction and actually believe that the nude body is acceptable. Don’t you agree?
They need to grow in wisdom and maturity. That includes training in virtues like modesty.
Click to expand...
Then you would say that any adult who does go around nude is immodest, immature, and unwise?
Why else would there be nude beaches in one country (which they consider modest) and a ban on them in another if the culture did not dictate it?
Click to expand...
That is exactly my point. That some places allow it does not mean it is morally licit. That is why culture is not the sole determinant of modesty. Many places allow all manner of immodest dress and behavior. That the civil law allows such does not mean it is in accord with the moral law.
Click to expand...

We have already established that modesty does not depend solely on culture but is tempered by our Catholic faith. However, we must recognize that many other countries have also been established longer than our own. Thus, like the elders in a village, they may have learned that modesty is not solely dependant upon clothing but is an intangible part of our character and (while man should not dress in ways to tempt their neighbor) they may also live a truly modest and moral life without these worldly status symbols.

rocklobster:
I think it would definitely send mixed messages to our children if we walked around nude in the home, regardless of what morals we nurture./QUOTE}
Click to expand...
Actually, I think that telling our children that nudity is all right in art while being evil in everyday life is already sending mixed messages to our children. Consider . . . if we say right now that nudity in front of family is bad, what will happen when we become too old to take care of ourselves. Will our children care for us in our infirmity (clothed and nude) or will they show to us just how far family has fallen and leave us to be taken care of by strangers? A person you won’t know but they will see all of you. We won’t have the faculties to know whether or not we should trust them, we’ll have to trust our kids. The same kids who shyed away from helping us because they would have had to have seen us naked. You can already see this in people’s reactions on this thread how they would never want to see their parents naked, as a child or an adult. Where’s the respect?
Click to expand...
Peace in Jesus, gw
Click to expand...
 
Mostly, we are an imperfect species who want our own way. Because of this, people are usually divided into two camps on every subject, each with a viewpoint that they aren’t willing to part with. Thus, in order to make progress and avoid a stalemate, we compromise with eachother on some topics to reach a semi-pleasing conclusion. If we did not, then we might become like the Communists who do not compromise and allow no leeway for discussion or compromise. Only when God creates the new Jerusalem will a perfect world be established where everone agrees with their neighbor. But until then, we compromise.
Click to expand...
In your dreams.
 
Nvidia uses what I consider to be somewhat sexual images in their product marketing. Particularly their GeForce product line. What do others think?

(For those not familiar with NVida, they are one of the major makers of video graphics chips for PCs.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top