Numbers 21:4-8 God's massacre?

[hihiip201]

As title, why??? I just heard this story (never been a numbers fan). Why would God order the attack just because they complained? I mean it is only reasonable for us to feel discourage and abandoned when we are thirsty and hungry. I mean God could have just tell the people to shut up if he’s got a plan, but why kill them with snakes?

 

[Carolus_Martell]

Over the years you hear different reasoning’s behind Gods actions. A few snake bites was nothing compared to what he was going to do when they made the golden calf. Thankfully Moses intervened.

My Mother always said that if God could lose patience with his chosen people just imagine what he’s do to the rest of us ingrates?

…btw Hezekiah many centuries later destroyed the bronze snake that God instructed Moses to erect that would cure his people that were bitten…

…it seemed some of the people slipped back into idol worship and were bringing offerings and sacrifices to that erected bronze snake.

 

[ShadowWolf514]

A few snake bites was nothing compared to what he was going to do when they made the golden calf. Thankfully Moses intervened.

My Mother always said that if God could lose patience with his chosen people just imagine what he’s do to the rest of us ingrates?

God does not change his mind; he remembered his promise to Abraham. He’s threats to wipe out the people was to allow Moses to defend them, which God knew Moses would do.

 

[ShadowWolf514]

Carolus Martell;9101833:

A few snake bites was nothing compared to what he was going to do when they made the golden calf. Thankfully Moses intervened.

My Mother always said that if God could lose patience with his chosen people just imagine what he’s do to the rest of us ingrates?

God does not change his mind; he remembered his promise to Abraham. He’s threats to wipe out the people was to allow Moses to defend them, which God knew Moses would do.

 

[TimothyH]

ShadowWolf514;9102100:

God does not change his mind; he remembered his promise to Abraham. He’s threats to wipe out the people was to allow Moses to defend them, which God knew Moses would do.

This is correct, and it was to teach the Jews to trust God.

Remember that they had just left Egypt after 400 years of bondage. To a lesser or greater extent, they had eaten Egyptian food, worshipped Egyptian Gods, spoken like the Egyptians and adapted to Egyptian society.

You brought up God’s promise to Abraham. Abraham trusted God. The Jews had lost that in Egypt, trusting their captors for provision, instead of trusting God. They did not trust God like Abraham did, and that was part of the reason for bringing them into the Desert where there was absolutely nothing - no food, no water, no protection from the elements - nothing. They would have to rely on God in the desert, and learn to trust Him.

That is exactly what God is doing in these passages - teaching Israel to trust him.

-Tim-

 

[hihiip201]

I still don’t see how this justify God’s slaughter of the Israelis. I mean he led them out and then tested them so that they would complain just so he can teach them a lesson?

Is it possible that the snakes attacks were “credited” to God by the author of numbers? When really God didn’t send them out?

 

[TimothyH]

I still don’t see how this justify God’s slaughter of the Israelis. I mean he led them out and then tested them so that they would complain just so he can teach them a lesson?

Is it possible that the snakes attacks were “credited” to God by the author of numbers? When really God didn’t send them out?

We don’t justify God. God justifies us.

-Tim-

 

[NotWorthy]

I still don’t see how this justify God’s slaughter of the Israelis. I mean he led them out and then tested them so that they would complain just so he can teach them a lesson?

Is it possible that the snakes attacks were “credited” to God by the author of numbers? When really God didn’t send them out?

Theen you would have to explain how the staff saved them. Yes, it was God’s doing.

 

[mercytruth]

I still don’t see how this justify God’s slaughter of the Israelis. I mean he led them out and then tested them so that they would complain just so he can teach them a lesson?

Is it possible that the snakes attacks were “credited” to God by the author of numbers? When really God didn’t send them out?

We would do well to read the entire chapter of 1 Corinth.10.

This is only part of the chapter: 1 Corinth.10:9-12 "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents. Neither do you murmur, as some of them of them murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them in a figure, and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

These events in the wilderness actually happened, and they are written for our correction. Paul mentions five sins to be on guard according to this chapter that the Israelites fell into. Covetousness, Idolatry, fornication, tempting God, and murmuring.

God is merciful, and also just in his holiness. Remember the dialogue between God and Satan concerning God’s servant Job. Satan is our accuser, our prosecuting attorney,and is continually challenging God regarding God’s justice in dealing with us.

We can thank God that we have an advocate with our Father in heaven, even Jesus Christ the righteous. The Israelites did not have Jesus Christ as an advocate in the wilderness, because Jesus Christ had not yet come to suffer and die for our sins. Even so, we should not presume God’s mercy, that would be tempting Christ.

 

[Roy5]

My faith, especially in the Old Testament, was shaken years ago when I first read and understood it. Here we had learned at church that God is just, merciful, and loves us all. Yet the scriptures are full of ‘God-endorsed’ genocide.

For example, God ordered Joshua to slay all the inhabitants of Jericho once those walls fell (except for the traitor and prostitute Rahab!). God demanded that Saul murder every living Amalekite. And read that weird tale involving Elisha, how some children teased him about his bald head, Elisha called down the curse of the Lord on them, and two she-bears emerged from the woods and mauled the kids! Give me a break!

 We could go and on. Remember how the people shouted "Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!" How can anything contradict more completely the Sermon on the Mount? 

 Then consider many other stories in the Old Testament. What about the wisest man ever - Solomon - with his 700 wives and 300 concubines? Just how wise was that? And we make David such a hero. He sent his trusting admirer off to be killed in battle so that he could steal his wife with whom he had already committed adultery - perhaps rape is the more appropriate term.

  I even have trouble with the miracles of Moses and the ten plagues. I have trouble, for example, believing that God killed the oldest son in every Egyptian home so that the ancient Hebrews might be freed to invade and slaughter entire tribes in another land.

  And what about Noah? Only eight people were good enough to be saved and all the rest drowned? What about all the children - even babies still in the womb? Would a merciful and just God drown all them, too? 

  Again, my God is the father of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace! And don't tell me we have no right to question God. I'm not questioning God. I'm defending him against such scurrilous slanders in the Old Testament that justify crimes by attributing them to the Lord. It seems that this vile tactic has been used through the centuries as an excuse for wholesale murder.

 

[Dave_B]

Roy5, how you view the OT depends upon your method of understanding scripture. Personally I view the Holy Bible as continuing revelation of Gods love for us, not as a history book I am not sure if this an acceptable position but helps me with the OT.

 

[mercytruth]

I do not think we understand the gravity of human depravation, and violence that was occurring before the era of salvation that was introduced by our most blessed savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Idolatry was everywhere, and it was often accompanied by demonic activity leading to all types of depravity of the human being, who is created in the image of God. Idolatry was a stronghold over nations, and it was such an attraction to the nation of Israel, that she too, fell under its influence.

Gnosticism arose in the beginnings of the church age, because of those who had difficulty in comprehending how the God of the OT could be identified as the same God of the NT.

So gnostic theories were developed where the God of the OT was called the demiurge, and the true God of the OT was spoken of as the unknown God, (who actually was disguised as Lucifer). These ideas remain with us today, but not openly.

The early church fathers **were continually **debating the numerous gnostic sects who were denying that the God of the OT is the same God as of the NT.

I do not want to imply that anyone who has difficulty with the historicity of the OT are in anyway associated with gnosticism. Only to say, that the early church fathers diligently defended the scriptural doctrine that the God of the OT is the same God as of the NT.

God’s peace to all.

 

[fisherman_carl]

We would do well to read the entire chapter of 1 Corinth.10…
These events in the wilderness actually happened, and they are written for our correction. Paul mentions five sins to be on guard according to this chapter that the Israelites fell into. Covetousness, Idolatry, fornication, tempting God, and murmuring…

Yes. Good answer. This example of the Israelites really shows the holiness of God and the penalty of sin. While it may seem harsh to us we have to remember who they were complaining against.

As an analogy consider this. If I walked into a bar and picked a fight with some guy I would probably get charged and thrown into jail for a couple of days. But, if I went to the president of the United States and picked a fight with him I would be charged with a federal offense and thrown into jail for 1 or 2 years. Now, I did the same thing in both cases. I got into a fight with someone. But, the punishments are very different. That is because the punishment always depends on the importance of the person you offended.

Now, consider God who is infinitely more important than the president of the U.S. Even a small offense against a person, becomes a much larger offense when done against God. Thus, when we sin against God we incur a much larger debt, one that we could never repay (see Mt 18:24-25). Thus, the only right penalty for sin against God could be the punishment of death (Rom 6:23).

Scripture also says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, we all have incurred a debt owed to God that we can not pay. And since God is very holy and righteous we remain separated from him, awaiting a fearful judgment for our sins. God is Eternal and any offense against him is an eternal debt. It is a debt that we can not pay ourselves. That is why God himself had to become a man and pay our debt for us by sacrificing himself on the cross as a ransom for our sins. Our sins could only be paid by an eternal person. Therefore, God made flesh, Jesus, the Eternal Word, became a man and sacrificed himself to pay our eternal debt.

That means we can be forgiven of our sins through Christ Jesus. That is good news!

Now, what happened to those people who sinned against God and died? Well, we don’t really know. But we do not know that Jesus preached to the prisoners in Sheol before he rose from the dead. It could be that some of them were saved and forgiven through Christ Jesus as well.

With forgiveness also comes responsibility to forgive others. Now that we can be forgiven of our sins in Christ and our eternal debt cancelled, it is especially horrible if we are unmerciful to others, like the unmerciful servant in Mt 18:21-35. This is why Jesus commands us to forgive others if we want to be forgiven. The Father is a merciful God, but he expects us to be merciful to others. Our debt to God is much, much larger than what others owe us. If we expect God to cancel our debts we must be willing to cancel those who have debts against us.

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

 

[Bible_Reader]

In 2 Kings 18:4, good King Hezekiah cleans up that snake idol business (“nehushtan”) started in Numbers 21.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

In 2 Kings 18:4, good King Hezekiah cleans up that snake idol business (“nehushtan”) started in Numbers 21.

It’s also interesting that God instructs Moses to make an image of one of a seraph (21:8), but instead Moses makes an image of a serpent (nahash) (21:9). The whole episode is a huge mess; no wonder King Hezekiah destroyed it.