Nuns' Prayer: "May Jews Remain Jews"

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Heresy Alert!

Here’s proof that a traditional closietered life, and the wearing of a full habit, are not ncessarily signs of orthodoxy in a convent.

How could this happen?

I thought the Church in the Holy Land was pretty orthodox?

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Beliefnet has been known to take some things out of context… yet I don’t doubt this happened. Maybe they read the CCC and followed pretty much what it says in the section on the Jews. Moreover, everyone who says the “prayer for the Jews” on Good Friday in the Novus Ordo Mass says pretty much just that: let the Jews remain Jews. It says that the Jews may grow in their covenant with God… same thing pretty much.

Lex orandi, lex credendi

 

[Sean_O_L]

Heresy Alert!

Here’s proof that a traditional closietered life, and the wearing of a full habit, are not ncessarily signs of orthodoxy in a convent.

Ummmmm! Heresy: “The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.”
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2089)

Can you tell us, “CatholicCrusade” precisely what de fide Dogma of the faith HAS been DENIED, or “obstinately” doubted"?

If not, is your claim simply the result of an itchy trigger finger?

Fr. Joe Horn, O.Praem. once answered one of my “shots” at what was “proximate to heresy” with:

It’s possible that you did overdo it, since it’s possible that she hasn’t got sufficient mental software and/or hardware to even comprehend what you’re saying. As soon as people begin to defend their opinions with statements of emotion instead of statements of reason, it’s safe to assume that they are not the sort of person who is accustomed to thinking logically, critically,
rationally. Such persons, like children, benefit more from long-suffering patience than from theologically precise debate.

Materially, what she said is in fact heretical, pure and simple. But it is almost certainly not heresy in her case, since heresy requires an act of the will, and I suspect that she (like
children) rarely uses her will at all, and simply goes with the flow of her current emotional state. She felt like saying what she said, so she said it. Logical step-by-step thinking probably had nothing to do with it.

“Theology is like higher mathematics; it requires great precision of thought and speech. You can’t just talk about it blah-blah-blah.” –
Father Ignatius O’Brien, O.P.

Of course, it’s also possible that the above is merely my wishful thinking, giving her the benefit of the doubt. Yes, she might be in formal heresy. I do not know. Nor do you. After pointing out that her opinion contradicts a clear teaching of the church, it might be most prudent to leave it at that, just as a wise parent doesn’t argue with a child. Is this a condescending attitude? Yes! The only other alternative is that she’s evil, and if that’s the case, arguing would be even more inappropriate.

Disclaimer: The above was my opinion when I wrote it, but might no longer be my opinion by time you read it.

God bless!

-Fr Joe-

So, again, can you point out, say from Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” what the “heresy” is?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Sean O L:

So, again, can you point out, say from Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” what the “heresy” is?

I don’t know who Ludwig Ott is really, but Mother del Bono is refusing to accept and act upon the words of the Saviour (whose words count far more than Ott’s).

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." ~Matthew 20:18-20

 

[katolik]

Sean O L:

Ummmmm! Heresy: “The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.”
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2089)

Can you tell us, “CatholicCrusade” precisely what de fide Dogma of the faith HAS been DENIED, or “obstinately” doubted"?

If not, is your claim simply the result of an itchy trigger finger?

Fr. Joe Horn, O.Praem. once answered one of my “shots” at what was “proximate to heresy” with:

So, again, can you point out, say from Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” what the “heresy” is?

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

 

[Sean_O_L]

I don’t know who Ludwig Ott is really, but Mother del Bono is refusing to accept and act upon the words of the Saviour (whose words count far more than Ott’s).

OK - “you don’t know who Ludwig Ott is really.” But, do you really know that Mother del Bono IS rejecting the injunction of Jesus? Do you accept, unreservedly, press reports?

You are Orthodox. I am asking (presumably) a Catholic to provide evidence for his accusation of heresy. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” is an accepted manual for Catholic Dogma - from which justification for heresy accusations should be able to be sourced.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." ~Matthew 20:18-20

Wonderful! Unfortunately, the sword has failed in the past. How can the Gospels be preached, baptizing be done, disciples be won in the face of an inability to access (in many lands - eg Muslim). I might add that there are some Christian Churches throughout history who have not done a whole lot of evangelizing the world.

It is very easy to hurl the “H” word about.

 

[Sean_O_L]

katolik wrote:

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

By which, I presume, that you mean that the Sister has denied that particular Dogma (the sense of which you limit to the Feneyite sense); that she is aware of denial in that sense as being gravely sinful; that she has been made aware of this position - yet obstinately continues to deny the Dogma?

If that is so - then, I suggest that you are wrong, because you are not in full possession of the facts. I add: neither am I. Nor are either of us in a position to judge her of heresy.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Maybe they read the CCC and followed pretty much what it says in the section on the Jews. Moreover, everyone who says the “prayer for the Jews” on Good Friday in the Novus Ordo Mass says pretty much just that: let the Jews remain Jews. It says that the Jews may grow in their covenant with God… same thing pretty much.

Not really. Praying that the Jews “grow in their Covenant with God” is at least an implicit prayer for their conversion to Catholicism.

So, again, can you point out, say from Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” what the “heresy” is?

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

I find it extremely hard to believe that the mother superior of a distinguished convent of nuns is unaware of the Church’s teaching in this regard, and the Christian duty of at least praying for the conversion of all peoples to the true religion.

There simply is no excuse here.

Don’t be naive. There’s always a chance that someone is not really culpable of the heresy they profess. This goes even for exxlesiatical censures against heresies. This is not so much a judgement of the person’s soul, as pointing out what is objective heresy, and coming from a Catholic leader who should know better.

If we were to need infallible proof that an individual is 100% culpable for their heresy, we wouldn’t ever be allowed to point out heresy were it exists.

We laypeople don’t have authority to excommunicate these heretical nuns. But we do have a duty to expose them for what they’re teaching.

 

[Sean_O_L]

We laypeople don’t have authority to excommunicate these heretical nuns. But we do have a duty to expose them for what they’re teaching.

But, we do NOT have a duty to publicly expose on an Internet forum a person as having espoused heresy. I would say that the best thing to do is to contact the party’s lawful Superior and convey your fears that the person may be “suspect of heresy” - giving your reasons to that appropriate person.

Only IF such a suspect person has been examined, warned and has deliberately continued in that state is the lawful Superior in a position to declare the suspect an heretic.

Only then may that person be described as an heretic.

In any event, it is the REPORTER, Julia Lieblich, who puts the words “Not to win souls for Christendom.” into the mouth of the nun. She does not back it up with a direct quote to that effect.

HAIFA, Israel, March 22 (AP)–While Pope John Paul II pleads for religious harmony in the Holy Land, 17 cloistered nuns on Mount Carmel quietly pray for their Jewish neighbors. Not to win souls for Christendom.

Caveamous, DominusVobiscum - and let your spirit be with Charity.