Nuns whipping themselves

[Half_Brown]

I have been reading Stephen Greenblatt’s “The Swerve” (just won the National Book Award). It includes some discriptions, like the below from the 14th century on Catholic practices.

Sister Catherine von Gebersweiler wrote this quote about the Dominicans nuns of Colmar:

At advent and during the whole of lent, the sisters would make their way after matins into the main hall or some other place devoted to their purposes …] and abused their bodies in the most acute fashion with all manner of scourging instruments until their blood flowed, so that the sound of the blows of the whip rang through the entire convent and rose more sweetly than any other melody to the ears of the Lord.

I have to say, I find this quote sick, not only in the acts described, but in the equating of abuse and its sounds with beautiful music. Can these practices be defended at anything other than sick practices of diseased minds? Have these practices been denounced? Have these sick nuns been denounced? Or do these disgusting acts continue? I have been looking into the Catholic faith, but this quote and other practices described in Greenblatt’s book have turned my stomach. I asked a Catholic friend about these practices, and he said I was not ready to read this book and that I should not think about this issue yet, but not thinking about it is not an option, and I will not hide from any book.

 

[mro]

It’s a small minority of nuns out of the thousands in this world…

Dominicans have always been nut jobs… Remember they’re the ones who ran the Spanish Inquisition

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I have to say, I find this quote sick, not only in the acts described, but in the equating of abuse and its sounds with beautiful music. Can these practices be defended at anything other than sick practices of diseased minds? Have these practices been denounced? Have these sick nuns been denounced? Or do these disgusting acts continue? I have been looking into the Catholic faith, but this quote and other practices described in Greenblatt’s book have turned my stomach. I asked a Catholic friend about these practices, and he said I was not ready to read this book and that I should not think about this issue yet, but not thinking about it is not an option, and I will not hide from any book.

I’m a former Catholic so I have some useful insights. Yes, these acts do continue. What the book is describing is a practice known as corporal mortification. It was widely practiced in antiquity, but to a lesser extent today.

You have to read the Bible and try to understand Catholic soteriology (teaching on salvation) to understand why some Catholics engage in this practice. In the New Testament, Paul describes reaching Heaven as similar to a “running competition”. When a runner wants to run a marathon, he undergoes strict training. In the same way, if one wants to attain Heaven, there are some things of the world that they have to forgo. Indeed, Paul says “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” (1 Corinthians 9:27). Jesus said himself that “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12), and mortifying your own flesh is believed by some Catholics to be a great sign of humility towards God and signifies your eagerness to reach Heaven.

There is also the aspect of Purgatory and penance. Some Catholics engage in corporal mortification as a means to remove the “debt” - or to use the technical term, the temporal effects - of their venial sins. Rather than having the debt be removed in Purgatory, some Catholics would prefer to do it on Earth as they believe it will be a lot less harsher than in Purgatory. This means they will be able to reach Heaven directly or more quickly, and behold the face of God. Scripture says: “In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood” (Hebrews 12:4).

That said, do Catholics practice corporal mortification? By and large, the overwhelming majority do not. I am willing to put the figure as high as 99.9% of Catholics do not practice any form of corporal mortification. The Church does not speak for or against it either. The Church is pretty lenient in its recommendations - exemplary in the case of fasting. What you have to understand about the Catholic Church, which is one of the world’s largest institutions, is that there are different spiritualities within Catholicism. There are “Charismatic Catholics”, who tend to focus on happiness and rejoicing about God, as Jesus said: “but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:33). There are Contemplatives, Traditionalists, Progressives, and so on and so forth. Catholics who practice corporal mortification generally fall under the Traditionalist movement, as they believe in incredibly strict rules, although the Traditionalist movement does not really speak authoritatively on the issue either.

Do I have a problem with it? Yes I do. But that’s a different matter entirely. Good thing you pressed further and are doing your research . You will ultimately be led to the truth. . .

 

[jmjconder]

Self mortification (which this is) is a long standing tradition within the spiritual life…as long as it is practiced under the advice and direction of a Spiritual Director. Many of the saints have undertaken this means to holiness.

 

[mro]

Self mortification (which this is) is a long standing tradition within the spiritual life…as long as it is practiced under the advice and direction of a Spiritual Director. Many of the saints have undertaken this means to holiness.

Self mortification is dumb… God commands us to take care of our bodies… Bodily harm is just a stupid way to show off what a pharisee someone is… Yes I’m calling out the Saints on this one!

 

[PattiDay]

I don’t think you find that this type of self mortification is practiced very widely today. Usually Catholics give up chocolate or wine instead.

 

[Lisa44]

Oh for crying out loud!

 

[LilyM]

Well then you’re calling out St Paul on it too. And of course you’re calling out Our Lord himself who voluntarily submitted himself to extreme fasts, whipping, scourging and crucifixion. We being the body of Christ, our mortifications are salvific, as his were, when we unite them to His.

Besides which, think about the literally tortuous rounds of training any soldier undergoes, or any professional athlete. I’m talking training till you bleed. Till you vomit. Till you pass out from the pain.

I’m talking competing in Olympics and World Championships with excruciatingly painful injuries - one swimmer in Athens literally had a lung partially collapsed but still competed, and won Olympic Gold. Imagine swimming 30 laps of a pool with that agony! And all completely voluntary - he could easily have pulled out of the race.

I’m talking two men standing together in a boxing ring each knowing that the other is going to do his utmost to pummel him completely senseless and that he will certainly will suffer more than a few bruises and cuts.

I had a schoolteacher who was also an elite level footballer. I saw his face up close every single Monday morning, fresh from the weekend’s games. it was most always messed up. Ever seen a professional dancer’s feet? Yikes.

And yet how much more important are the spiritual battles and training these monks and nuns need to undergo, far more so than any eartly soldier or athlete. So why do we laud and praise the latter for their physical and mental toughness and tenacity, and

 

[LilyM]

Sorry. Pressed send too early. Point being why are those who choose to mortify themselves for spiritual reasons so derided when we’re happy for athletes to almost literally bust a gut for fleeting sporting glory?

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Sorry. Pressed send too early. Point being why are those who choose to mortify themselves for spiritual reasons so derided when we’re happy for athletes to almost literally bust a gut for fleeting sporting glory?

Would you purposefully damage a tabernacle? No. Then why would anyone self-mutilated their bodies which are temples that the Holy Spirit lives in?

 

[Irish_Polock]

I’m a former Catholic so I have some useful insights. Yes, these acts do continue. What the book is describing is a practice known as corporal mortification. It was widely practiced in antiquity, but to a lesser extent today.

You have to read the Bible and try to understand Catholic soteriology (teaching on salvation) to understand why some Catholics engage in this practice. In the New Testament, Paul describes reaching Heaven as similar to a “running competition”. When a runner wants to run a marathon, he undergoes strict training. In the same way, if one wants to attain Heaven, there are some things of the world that they have to forgo. Indeed, Paul says “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” (1 Corinthians 9:27). Jesus said himself that “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12), and mortifying your own flesh is believed by some Catholics to be a great sign of humility towards God and signifies your eagerness to reach Heaven.

There is also the aspect of Purgatory and penance. Some Catholics engage in corporal mortification as a means to remove the “debt” - or to use the technical term, the temporal effects - of their venial sins. Rather than having the debt be removed in Purgatory, some Catholics would prefer to do it on Earth as they believe it will be a lot less harsher than in Purgatory. This means they will be able to reach Heaven directly or more quickly, and behold the face of God. Scripture says: “In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood” (Hebrews 12:4).

That said, do Catholics practice corporal mortification? By and large, the overwhelming majority do not. I am willing to put the figure as high as 99.9% of Catholics do not practice any form of corporal mortification. The Church does not speak for or against it either. The Church is pretty lenient in its recommendations - exemplary in the case of fasting. What you have to understand about the Catholic Church, which is one of the world’s largest institutions, is that there are different spiritualities within Catholicism. There are “Charismatic Catholics”, who tend to focus on happiness and rejoicing about God, as Jesus said: “but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:33). There are Contemplatives, Traditionalists, Progressives, and so on and so forth. Catholics who practice corporal mortification generally fall under the Traditionalist movement, as they believe in incredibly strict rules, although the Traditionalist movement does not really speak authoritatively on the issue either.

Do I have a problem with it? Yes I do. But that’s a different matter entirely. Good thing you pressed further and are doing your research . You will ultimately be led to the truth. . .

I would agree with what you have written.

 

[Nita]

Self mortification is dumb… God commands us to take care of our bodies… Bodily harm is just a stupid way to show off what a pharisee someone is… Yes I’m calling out the Saints on this one!

Why do football players charge full steam into (whatever you call those things they plow into at football practice)? or runners, weight lifters, or other professions undergo the gruelling training their professions include.
It’s to prepare them for the challenge/s they are very likely to face.

Some of our biggest temptations to sin come from the cravings of the flesh - the flesh demanding what it wants/prefers, what makes it comfortable. Learning to hold to a higher principle, especially when the flesh rebels against it, takes practice. One of the purposes of the penitential practices is that they serve as training to strengthen the will to ignore the demands of the flesh, to be in control of the flesh; self-mastery.
It may seem to some like those who choose religious life are less likely to experience fleshly temptations. I have a feeling it may be just the opposite. Satan is evil, but he’s no fool – the more holy the person, the more he is likely to seek their downfall; the more ammunition he is likely to use against that person.

In conjunction with this “training” aspect, there is also the opportunity to unite any pain involved with the pain Our Lord voluntarily accepted - and offer it up in union with Him as reparation for sin and for the salvation of souls.

Just in case you think your will is really strong and in control over any demands your flesh might make, just decide (will) to continuously hold your arms out (like Our Lord’s on the cross) for 30 minutes. You’ll get a chance to experience the battle between the flesh and the will (and it won’t harm your body).

 

[Hadrianus]

So much varies by culture and era. Shia Muslims whip themselves violently at certain times of the year, and some Filipino Catholics adopt extreme and bloody penances which all the efforts of the bishops to stop have not prevented them down to this day. And then we have, or had, the Aztecs and the Mayans…

Apart from fasting which is still very much a Catholic custom (and also Orthodox and Anglican) and follows the example of Our Lord, the other more extreme forms of self mortification are rare in Christianity today.

The idea behind it was to be in union with the sufferings of Christ, and to participate in the redemption of the world thereby. With some people there is obviously a morbid element, and spiritual advisors down through the centuries would try to discourage or prohibit certain individuals from engaging in these things.

What is often not understood is that much of the Inquisition’s work was spent not chasing down atheists or witches, but actually stopping fanatics.

 

[BornAgain2010]

It might surprise a few that Blessed John Paul II practiced self-mortification daily.

Also in the 1300’s or 1400’s (during the Black Plague), there was a fanatic movement in Germeny known as the Flagellants. They would travel around countryside to countryside flogging themselves publicly as a practice of penance.

 

[Mintaka]

The Flagellants, like the St. Vitus dancers, are not supposed to be taken as a good example!

One of the reasons that ascetics (ascesis originally meant athletic training, so ascetics are spiritual athletes keeping up a training regimen) are supposed to have a spiritual director or friend, somebody giving them advice and orders, is that spiritual athletes are just as prone to “overtraining” as physical ones. Pain is not always gain, more doesn’t always mean better. The point is to exercise in the right way at the right time for exactly the optimal amount. Spiritual directors are the coaches and personal trainers of the spiritual athlete world.

The Flagellants were laypeople who basically decided that the most important thing in life was to beat up on themselves, probably because they misinterpreted the kind of “runner’s high” that people can get from tiring themselves out while losing blood. (It’s also possible that they worked themselves into some kind of psychological problem/fetish or were adding drugs to the mix.) Basically, they ran around Europe trying to get other people to do the same. They also had the not very nice habit, everywhere they went, of encouraging people to kill Jews, which suggests a really nasty bloodlust component to their badly malformed excuse for spirituality; and apparently some of the women members of the Flagellant groups were treated unpleasantly by some of the male leaders. All very cultish, too – they didn’t want people to leave their bands, if I recall.

So yes, a Very Bad Example of what can happen to people who lack good instruction and spiritual direction.

 

[LilyM]

Would you purposefully damage a tabernacle? No. Then why would anyone self-mutilated their bodies which are temples that the Holy Spirit lives in?

Who’s talking about mutilation? It’s not like they’re hacking off a limb or removing a completely healthy organ.

There is pain, yes. Blood loss, sometimes (as in the case of those nuns).

Ask any athlete or soldier, their training also involves plenty of pain and sometimes bloody injuries. Yet you wouldn’t say that they are mutilating their bodies!

The purpose is not to permanently disfigure or mutilate the body by any means.

 

[Doxiemom]

I am sorry, but doing this just is so wrong on so may levels.

And it is sick.

Take Joy in the Lord.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Who’s talking about mutilation? It’s not like they’re hacking off a limb or removing a completely healthy organ.

There is pain, yes. Blood loss, sometimes (as in the case of those nuns).

Ask any athlete or soldier, their training also involves plenty of pain and sometimes bloody injuries. Yet you wouldn’t say that they are mutilating their bodies!

The purpose is not to permanently disfigure or mutilate the body by any means.

Forgive me, self-damage. Still waiting for an answer, why would anyone want to self-“damage” their bodies which is a temple that the Holy Spirit lives in and a recipient of Christ in the Eucharist? We’re called to be stewards, caretakers, of the earth. If He commands us to care for simple corporeal things that have no spiritual end, isn’t it logical to think he commands us to hold bodies to that same standard, if not higher?

The athlete/soldier analogy seems like a stretch. They train physically to the brink of physical damage necessarily because their occupation demands high physical stress. I’m not seeing the relation here to the religious life which is pure contemplation, prayer, study, etc… If one wants to do these sorts of things, then I suggest the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola.

 

[LilyM]

Forgive me, self-damage. Still waiting for an answer, why would anyone want to self-“damage” their bodies which is a temple that the Holy Spirit lives in and a recipient of Christ in the Eucharist? We’re called to be stewards, caretakers, of the earth. If He commands us to care for simple corporeal things that have no spiritual end, isn’t it logical to think he commands us to hold bodies to that same standard, if not higher?

The athlete/soldier analogy seems like a stretch. They train physically to the brink of physical damage necessarily because their occupation demands high physical stress. I’m not seeing the relation here to the religious life which is pure contemplation, prayer, study, etc… If one wants to do these sorts of things, then I suggest the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola.

You mean the SOLDIER St Ignatius? Whose works drip with military imagery? Who called his book Spiritual EXERCISES (as in just like military exercises) fer crying out loud? Are you seriously suggesting he didn’t intend there to be any relationship between the discipline he learned in the military and his spirituality? You must be joking!

His order was designed among other things for missionary work - which it undertook with distinction both in Protestant European countries such as England and in far off lands such as Canada and Japan.

Neither he nor his fellow Jesuits had any illusions about the likely outcome - years of living
under physically harsh conditions, either in hiding or among native peoples. People who
were far more likely to torture and kill them than roll over and peaceably convert. Read about how the Jesuit seminary in Douai trained the priests it sent to England and what became of some of them such as Edmund Campion. Read about the fate of St Isaac Jogues and St Rene Gouplil in Canada. Or just watch the movie Black Robe.

Physical discipline and toughness was essential for men to so bravely and resolutely endure, as they all knew they were almost certain to do, extreme physical hardships.

And in case you’re thinking ‘how does this apply to contemplatives?’ let me tell you a bit about St Pio of Pietrelcina. A man of deepest contemplative and mystical prayer, although not a member of a contemplative order. A man who enraged the evil one by his closeness to Christ and the resulting good he did for countless souls, some of whom did not even know him personally or at all.

So much so that the devil would literally physically attack him. He would sometimes be
found in his room as black and blue and bloodied as if he had been viciously mugged in
the street, and not by his own or any human hand. Do you think he could have stayed spiritually steadfast except that he had developed immense spiritual toughness, in part through the intense physical suffering caused by his stigmata?

I’ll leave you with this thought. To deny that PHYSICAL suffering, undertaken in the proper spirit, has SPIRITUAL value, is to say that our Lord’s various voluntary physical mortifications - His intense fasting after His baptism, His scourging, crowning and
crucifixion - were completely useless. Worse than useless, the products of a sock and diseased mind.

If our mortifications are useless then there’s no reason why He needed to undergo any either. He too could have sat on His butt and contemplated us into salvation.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thank you to all who participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.