NY Times Opinion Piece - "The Pope's Language Lesson"

[MaryD7]

Below is a link to an opinion piece in today’s NY Times. I am curious what CAF’s Traditional Catholics think. Agree? Disagree?

nytimes.com/2007/05/30/opinion/30allen.html

PS: Was I supposed to capitalize the word “traditional” above?

 

[BobP123]

That’s John Allen for you. The NCR has never really been accused of having too many leanings toward Traditionalism or traditionalism.

 

[tee_eff_em]

That’s John Allen for you. The NCR has never really been accused of having too many leanings toward Traditionalism or traditionalism.

And yet he makes some salient points. :twocents:

Particularly, I’d not heard before the idea that wider application of the TLM will exert a “gravitational pull” on the current Mass to correct abuses there.

(But neither is this by any means the first time I’ve heard or read second-hand accounts of those with the inside pope track. )

tee

 

[rwoehmke]

In my opinion a balanced understanding of what’s going to go down at both nodes. I wouldn’t have expected such balance from an NCR article about anything. Not only balanced, but realistic in its anticipated impact. Unusual for religious reporting by the NY Times.

 

[KathleenElsie]

And yet he makes some salient points. :twocents:

Particularly, I’d not heard before the idea that wider application of the TLM will exert a “gravitational pull” on the current Mass to correct abuses there.

(But neither is this by any means the first time I’ve heard or read second-hand accounts of those with the inside pope track. )

tee

When it happens it only makes good sense that it will bring the Pauline Mass into a more reverent form. Even those that will not attend more then one time the TLM will want the reverence the TLM provides.

 

[BobP123]

And yet he makes some salient points. :twocents:

Particularly, I’d not heard before the idea that wider application of the TLM will exert a “gravitational pull” on the current Mass to correct abuses there.

(But neither is this by any means the first time I’ve heard or read second-hand accounts of those with the inside pope track. )

tee

No doubt he makes good points. The “graviational pull,” however, could be toward less reverence in the TLM too. But then I talk from the other side of the fence.

 

[MaryD7]

Thanks for your thoughts on this article. I thought he laid it out pretty well.

I thought about this today and my personal opinion is that he is right when he says that this event will hardly be a blip on the radar screen of most RC’s (unless, of course, the media blows it out of proportion). The NO is all I know but if they aren’t changing that, why would I notice?

A question I would have like to have seen addressed is if, by allowing the TLM, the SSPX would be considered non-schismatic? I mean, which way is this flowing? By allowing TLM does it make the SSPX part of the Church again because the differences are now mute? Or does the SSPX have to ask to return to the Church? Or are there other ‘issues’ that I am not aware of?

 

[DWPC]

By allowing TLM does it make the SSPX part of the Church again because the differences are now mute? Or does the SSPX have to ask to return to the Church? Or are there other ‘issues’ that I am not aware of?

I believe the SSPX disobeyed papal instructions to desist from anointing its own bishops, and in doing went from liturgical troublemaker to Canon Law felon in the eyes of the Rome. SSPX members will be invited to return to a “Latin-lite” Church, but I doubt there will be any reconciliation of the SSPX clergy or hierarchy. But that presumes the bishops will pay any attention to an MP on Latin. At best, I expect to see a lot of 5AM masses in Latin, then they’ll tell Rome…“See. We tried”. And that will be that.

 

[MaryD7]

I believe the SSPX disobeyed papal instructions to desist from anointing its own bishops, and in doing went from liturgical troublemaker to Canon Law felon in the eyes of the Rome. SSPX members will be invited to return to a “Latin-lite” Church, but I doubt there will be any reconciliation of the SSPX clergy or hierarchy. But that presumes the bishops will pay any attention to an MP on Latin. At best, I expect to see a lot of 5AM masses in Latin, then they’ll tell Rome…“See. We tried”. And that will be that.

Do you think that it will stop the defections to the SSPX? Do you think that some of the SSPX clergy or heirarchy will return on their own?

I was wondering if my parish would offer a TLM. We have a vigil Mass on Saturday at 5:00, and on Sunday’s we have a Mass at 7:30, 9:00 (High Mass), 10:30 (Spanish), 12:00 and 5:00 pm on Sundays. I believe if anything they would do the TLM at 5:00 pm on Sundays. The other ones are well attended and Sunday 5:00’s attendance is iffy at times.

Maybe they would do something with surrounding parishes until the numbers started building up.

 

[DWPC]

Do you think that it will stop the defections to the SSPX? Do you think that some of the SSPX clergy or heirarchy will return on their own?

I was wondering if my parish would offer a TLM. We have a vigil Mass on Saturday at 5:00, and on Sunday’s we have a Mass at 7:30, 9:00 (High Mass), 10:30 (Spanish), 12:00 and 5:00 pm on Sundays. I believe if anything they would do the TLM at 5:00 pm on Sundays. The other ones are well attended and Sunday 5:00’s attendance is iffy at times.

Maybe they would do something with surrounding parishes until the numbers started building up.

Actual impact of the SSPX is overblown, at least in the US. I doubt that most Catholics are even aware it exists.

As far as a LM for your parish; if the Papal MP is issued, it will be up to your pastor and bishop. If they’re not particularly “Latin-friendly” either could do much to impede a Latin Mass without actually going afoul of Rome. For example, we have an indulted TLM in a neighboring parish, but its at 1:30 on Sunday afternoons; a couple dozen hard-core trads attend, but that time isn’t very conducive to popular attendance.

 

[BobP123]

Do you think that it will stop the defections to the SSPX? Do you think that some of the SSPX clergy or heirarchy will return on their own?

Originally some of the SSPX members became members of the FSSP, perhaps in better communion with the Church at that time.

There seems to be hope that, while there may not maybe ever in full communion with the French bishops, the SSPX can still be very helpful in communicating BXVI’s message to the world. Certainly Bishop Fellay is doing a creditable job, much better than a whole lot of bishops in “full” communion with the Pope.

 

[BobP123]

Actual impact of the SSPX is overblown, at least in the US. I doubt that most Catholics are even aware it exists.

I somehow recall reading somewhere that the percentage of TLM going to SSPX Masses is around 30%; I don’t know where though. The rest go to indults or to independent priests.

 

[MaryD7]

… As far as a LM for your parish; if the Papal MP is issued, it will be up to your pastor and bishop. If they’re not particularly “Latin-friendly” either could do much to impede a Latin Mass without actually going afoul of Rome. For example, we have an indulted TLM in a neighboring parish, but its at 1:30 on Sunday afternoons; a couple dozen hard-core trads attend, but that time isn’t very conducive to popular attendance.

I hope at least they give it a shot. I wouldn’t mind trying it and it may turn out to be a positive thing for our diocese.

I have to admit, though, that our diocese seems to be pretty much ‘by the book’ when it comes to celebrating the Mass, even though it is not in Latin. I’ve read of some of the abuses happening in other places and I’ve seen none of that here. I’m not sure how many people would feel the need to go to a TLM, other than preference for that particular Mass.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I believe the SSPX disobeyed papal instructions to desist from anointing its own bishops, and in doing went from liturgical troublemaker to Canon Law felon in the eyes of the Rome. SSPX members will be invited to return to a “Latin-lite” Church, but I doubt there will be any reconciliation of the SSPX clergy or hierarchy. But that presumes the bishops will pay any attention to an MP on Latin. At best, I expect to see a lot of 5AM masses in Latin, then they’ll tell Rome…“See. We tried”. And that will be that.

And those 5 AM Masses will held in closets?

The SSPX will never accept the other things that will be required of them in order to return to the fold. They will have to accept ecumenism, Vatican II and the possibility of concelebration, and that will never happen. I don’t think the MP is enough to make them return. They see themselves as the keepers of tradition, and they will not compromise that position.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Actual impact of the SSPX is overblown, at least in the US. I doubt that most Catholics are even aware it exists.

As far as a LM for your parish; if the Papal MP is issued, it will be up to your pastor and bishop. If they’re not particularly “Latin-friendly” either could do much to impede a Latin Mass without actually going afoul of Rome. For example, we have an indulted TLM in a neighboring parish, but its at 1:30 on Sunday afternoons; a couple dozen hard-core trads attend, but that time isn’t very conducive to popular attendance.

I’ve noticed that the TLM’s that are offered in my state (only a few) have 5pm or noon Mass. For me it wouldn’t matter what time it is, and from what I understand they are popular. I would just like one in my area. I just recently found one in another state that is closer; it is a Monastery and they offer very early low masses and a sung high 10am Sunday Mass.

I’m afraid I’m one of those ill informed Catholics that never heard of the SSPX either until I started reading CAF.

 

[rien]

I think this article is right on. I support a liberalizing of the TLM availability but I don’t see masses of Catholics flocking to it. The FSSP paroshes have remained pretty much small with little growth.

Is there denmand for the TLM - yes. Is it great - not near as much IMO as many Traditionalists think.

In point of fact Benedict is turning out to be “liberal” - a loaded term - in many of his postions and expecially bishop appointments. The author nailed that one.

 

[BobP123]

I think this article is right on. I support a liberalizing of the TLM availability but I don’t see masses of Catholics flocking to it.

Maybe not immediately but when you see more of the non-contracepting people with larger families attending, you don’t have to be a mathematician to see things on a larger scale over a 200 to 300 year time frame.

Is there denmand for the TLM - yes. Is it great - not near as much IMO as many Traditionalists think.

Realistically there is more of a growing demand for the Spanish Mass and I’ve seen some very reverent Spanish Masses but when given a choice would you take the TLM or the Spanish Mass? This may be your only choice 10-20 years down the road. Ok, throw in the Polish Polka Mass, too.

In point of fact Benedict is turning out to be “liberal” - a loaded term - in many of his postions and expecially bishop appointments. The author nailed that one.

How can you say that when he got all those worse-than-liberal politicians upset in South America? But give him some slack. He doesn’t want to lose too many Catholics. I would like to see him celebrate the TLM just once for the world to see though, MP or no MP.