O.Carm.

[VeroNihilVerius]

I have been reading a lot about the Carmelites, and I believe that I have gotten a decent amount of information on O.C.D., but was wondering more about O.Carm., and specifically the particular charism. Any help and resources would be appreciated! I have read a few pages, but wanted to get a more personal view. Thank you!

Auspice Maria,

VNV

 

[Ocarm]

I was wondering more about O.Carm., and specifically the particular charism.

A friend of mine commented that the two orders are branches from the same tree, and nourished by the same roots. But the differences between the O.Carm and OCD charisms are sometimes hard to define: the following thread may contain some of the answers you’re looking for -

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333843

One clear difference is that the O.Carm trace their origins specifically to the hermits on Mount Carmel in the 12th century. The OCD more typically trace their origins to St Teresa and St John of the Cross, and their interpretation of the life of the hermits (an interpretation actually based less on history and more upon Carmelite mythology dating to the 15th-16th centuries).

This latter view has sometimes extended to a dismissal of anything that happened before the Teresian reform, although that is not the view held by OCD religious today; similarly contemplative prayer was not always a focal part of O.Carm spirituality, but through the influence of Teresa and John has become more significant in the recent past.

Perhaps if you had some more specific questions it would be easier to comment on the subject.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Back in the beginnings the friars were a bit more austere which they attributed to a strict following of the rule but it was not really found within the rule.

Today I do not think they are so but it is my understanding that they are a bit less active, that is they do not have the many ministries that the O.Carm. have.

The friars are also involved a bit more in publishing than the O.Carm…

 

[Young_Thinker]

Back in the beginnings the friars were a bit more austere which they attributed to a strict following of the rule but it was not really found within the rule.

Today I do not think they are so but it is my understanding that they are a bit less active, that is they do not have the many ministries that the O.Carm. have.

The friars are also involved a bit more in publishing than the O.Carm…

Indeed, there seem to be a lot more Discalced Carmelites are well-known. For instance, there are 3 Doctors of the Church who belonged to O.D.C.(Saints Teresa de Avila, Juan de la Cruz, and Te’r`ese de Lisieux) and one Pope who was a Secular Discalced Carmelite(the Ven. John Paul II).

 

[Young_Thinker]

To me, the Carmelites are among the most charismatic(no pun intended) religious families. Unfortunately, such groups often break up. As a comparison, in terms of number of religious, the Franciscans are probably the largest family in the Catholic Church(and even have branches beyond it!), yet they are split into numerous orders(Observants, Conventuals, Capuchins, etc.), while Jesuits are apparently the biggest single institute of religious life. Anyway, as for the Carmelites, I find it interesting that they emphasize various Biblical saints, namely Elias, Eliseus, John the Baptist, and the Virgin Mary(their patroness).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Indeed, there seem to be a lot more Discalced Carmelites are well-known. For instance, there are 3 Doctors of the Church who belonged to O.D.C.(Saints Teresa de Avila, Juan de la Cruz, and Te’r`ese de Lisieux) and one Pope who was a Secular Discalced Carmelite(the Ven. John Paul II).

Actually St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross were O.Carm., the Discalced did not become their own Order until a year after the death of St John of the Cross.

Also St John passed away in an O.Carm. house.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

To me, the Carmelites are among the most charismatic(no pun intended) religious families. Unfortunately, such groups often break up. As a comparison, in terms of number of religious, the Franciscans are probably the largest family in the Catholic Church(and even have branches beyond it!), yet they are split into numerous orders(Observants, Conventuals, Capuchins, etc.), while Jesuits are apparently the biggest single institute of religious life. Anyway, as for the Carmelites, I find it interesting that they emphasize various Biblical saints, namely Elias, Eliseus, John the Baptist, and the Virgin Mary(their patroness).

Elijah (Elias) and Mary are seen as our spiritual founders becuase the O.Carm. do not know who actually founded the Order. He is only addressed as Brother B in the Rule.

The motto of our Order are the words of Elijah, “With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of Hosts”.

Also, do not forget St Joseph as he is the Protector of our Order.

 

[Shoshana]

Actually St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross were O.Carm., the Discalced did not become their own Order until a year after the death of St John of the Cross.

Also St John passed away in an O.Carm. house.

This is true! But they possessed or were possessed by the spirit of the OCD! How the O’Carms treated John of the Cross was unbelievable, but then that only increased John’s holiness and it was during this time he wrote the Spriitual Canticle. Some masterpiece of love!

God will write straight with crooked lines.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Actually St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross were O.Carm., the Discalced did not become their own Order until a year after the death of St John of the Cross.

Also St John passed away in an O.Carm. house.

That’s not entirely true. It is true that the O.C.D. was not an autonomous religious order until 1593, the year following the death of Saint John of the Cross, but they had had their own Discalced Carmelite province since 1580, two years before the death of Saint Teresa of Avila. And before that they had been in the Discalced Carmelite reform movement within the Carmelites (O.Carm.).

They are considered the founders of the Discalced Carmelites for good reason.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Elijah (Elias) and Mary are seen as our spiritual founders becuase the O.Carm. do not know who actually founded the Order. He is only addressed as Brother B in the Rule.

The motto of our Order are the words of Elijah, “With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of Hosts”.

Also, do not forget St Joseph as he is the Protector of our Order.

Indeed, Brother David.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Elijah (Elias) and Mary are seen as our spiritual founders becuase the O.Carm. do not know who actually founded the Order. He is only addressed as Brother B in the Rule.

The motto of our Order are the words of Elijah, “With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of Hosts”.

Also, do not forget St Joseph as he is the Protector of our Order.

I read the other day that the Orders also highly venerate Saints Joachim and Anne.

And, isn’t Brother B thought to be Saint Brocard (the Brother who asked Saint Albert for a Rule) and the general founder (as in leading the first group of hermits on Mount Carmel) thought to be Saint Berthold?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That’s not entirely true. It is true that the O.C.D. was not an autonomous religious order until 1593, the year following the death of Saint John of the Cross, but they had had their own Discalced Carmelite province since 1580, two years before the death of Saint Teresa of Avila. And before that they had been in the Discalced Carmelite reform movement within the Carmelites (O.Carm.).

They are considered the founders of the Discalced Carmelites for good reason.

This does not change the fact that at their deaths they were members of the Order of Carmel as there was no Order of Discalced Carmelites.

The Order of Carmel has a history of reform movements with reform houses and such but all were of Carmel. If it was not for outside influence, IMO (and many others), there would never have been a split but no one can deny that Teresa and John were O.Carm. at the time of their deaths.

I also think that the treatment John recieved at the end of his life by the O.C.D. leadership was scandalous, almost as bad as what the O.Carm. did but one must remember that the days were different back then and disobedience to one’s superiors was taken very serously. Teresa and John were forming reformed houses outside of the area the Prior General allowed for them. That does not make it right but I think it is a bit disingenous to compare things of those days with the way society is today.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I also think that the treatment John recieved at the end of his life by the O.C.D. leadership was scandalous, almost as bad as what the O.Carm. did but one must remember that the days were different back then and disobedience to one’s superiors was taken very serously. Teresa and John were forming reformed houses outside of the area the Prior General allowed for them. That does not make it right but I think it is a bit disingenous to compare things of those days with the way society is today.

Saint John of the Cross was certainly thrown about during his life, there’s no doubt about that.

http://enlargingtheheart.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/johncross5.jpg
Saint John of the Cross, pray for us.

 

[Ocarm]

And, isn’t Brother B thought to be Saint Brocard (the Brother who asked Saint Albert for a Rule) and the general founder (as in leading the first group of hermits on Mount Carmel) thought to be Saint Berthold?

Those claims have been made in the past, but none of the historians of the order grant them any credibility today. There is no concrete evidence to support either identification, but this kind of mythology gathers its own momentum and is hard to supplant. The truth is that our early history is lost, and in some ways I find that rather romantic.

For anyone with an interest in how the order explained its own origins in the early days, I would recommend ‘The Ten Books on the Way of Life and Great Deeds of the Carmelites’ (also known as the Book of the First Monks), written c.1385 and only recently available in full in English translation. Its currently being reprinted, but is available from some sources - see:

carmelites.info/edizioni/book%20advertisements%20in%20eng/copsey.Ten_Books_on_the_Way.htm

The book is full of wonderful (and wonderfully fantastic) tales explaining how Elijah and Elisha were actually members of the order, which traces its origins back to pre-Christian times; how the brothers prayed for the coming of Jesus, and saw their prayers answered; and how they were present at the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. In the midst of all this legend-making, there are some spiritual truths about the charism of the order and the models of virtue to which it looked in those long ago days.

Its fascinating to think that John of the Cross (and perhaps also Teresa) was familiar with this work, and probably would have taken it at face value. Its effect upon their desire to establish a way of life that would reflect that of the first hermits is unknown and unknowable.

 

[Shoshana]

This does not change the fact that at their deaths they were members of the Order of Carmel as there was no Order of Discalced Carmelites.

The Order of Carmel has a history of reform movements with reform houses and such but all were of Carmel. If it was not for outside influence, IMO (and many others), there would never have been a split but no one can deny that Teresa and John were O.Carm. at the time of their deaths.

I also think that the treatment John recieved at the end of his life by the O.C.D. leadership was scandalous, almost as bad as what the O.Carm. did but one must remember that the days were different back then and disobedience to one’s superiors was taken very serously. Teresa and John were forming reformed houses outside of the area the Prior General allowed for them. That does not make it right but I think it is a bit disingenous to compare things of those days with the way society is today.

Thank you Bro!