Obedience is not a virtue in itself

[someperson555]

So it never made sense to me why some Catholics insist that Catholics are even bound to obey non infallible teachings. Think about this. Back in the old testament. Pork was banned and circumcision was mandatory. Now if a person back then was smart enough to see that these were clearly man made superstitions. Thus he would defiantly est pork and not submit to circumcision. Do you think God would have really condemned him? It’s the same with the church. The church has a bunch of man made teachings and traditions. For example they used to have a forbidden book index. Do you think a Catholic who would’ve disobeyed and read those books would’ve been condemned by God? I don’t think so.

 

[Greekrhetoric]

Yes and yes.

 

[poche]

So it never made sense to me why some Catholics insist that Catholics are even bound to obey non infallible teachings. Think about this. Back in the old testament. Pork was banned and circumcision was mandatory. Now if a person back then was smart enough to see that these were clearly man made superstitions. Thus he would defiantly est pork and not submit to circumcision. Do you think God would have really condemned him? It’s the same with the church. The church has a bunch of man made teachings and traditions. For example they used to have a forbidden book index. Do you think a Catholic who would’ve disobeyed and read those books would’ve been condemned by God? I don’t think so.

According to the Book of Machabees people died rather than to eat pork. Of course deliberatly disobeying the discipline of the Old Law at that time was really a rejection of God Himself.
Sometimes the respect for the discipline of teh Church is a symbol of our respect for what it stands for.

 

[peter26]

Although I agree with your broad point, it is necessary to obey laws given by God. The prohibition on eating pork for instance was given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. Those who followed this commandment were not being superstitious. If the commandment had not come from God, you may have a point.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Obedience can be a virtue in itself if you are being obedient in order to honor God and try to do His will, even if you think the prohibition does not make much sense.

The Index of Forbidden Books has to be viewed in the context of its time, since many if not most of the books on the list would not be “forbidden” today and are just considered works of science, economics, or other scholarly works. Back then, conditions existed that caused the Church to think such books were dangerous to the faithful.

If someone had read such a book back when the Index existed for a scholarly purpose - for example, to analyze whether it really belonged on the Index, as it’s likely people associated with the Vatican had to do - then it wouldn’t be a sin.
If, on the other hand, someone rushed out and read the book simply because it was forbidden and they wanted to make a big defiant point, it would be a sin.

 

[Dorothy]

So it never made sense to me why some Catholics insist that Catholics are even bound to obey non infallible teachings. Think about this. Back in the old testament. Pork was banned and circumcision was mandatory. Now if a person back then was smart enough to see that these were clearly man made superstitions. Thus he would defiantly est pork and not submit to circumcision. Do you think God would have really condemned him? It’s the same with the church. The church has a bunch of man made teachings and traditions. For example they used to have a forbidden book index. Do you think a Catholic who would’ve disobeyed and read those books would’ve been condemned by God? I don’t think so.

The rules in the Old Testament are meant to set the people apart from the pagan nations. Of course, it is always important to follow the rules in the right attitude…the love of God. The Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity was to take place in the people chosen by the Lord!

Traditions with a lower “t” in the Church can be changed. When we obey we are honoring the Lord.

The forbidden book index was to be a help, because some of those books when read by people in a different spiritual place than others, could be confused by them. And, some of the books were heretical, leading into error. (Although saintly theologians could read those to educate themselves.)

In the movie about St. Teresa of Avila (in Spanish with English subtitles) it was hilarious to watch the scene in which the Inquisition questioned Teresa. She obediently gave up the spiritual books she was reading. The questions the inquisitors asked were calmly responded to by her.

Disobedience to a superior (parent, teacher, etc.) is not wrong if they were to ask us to sin. ( Steal, or lie about this or that.)

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Reuben_J]

So it never made sense to me why some Catholics insist that Catholics are even bound to obey non infallible teachings. Think about this. Back in the old testament. Pork was banned and circumcision was mandatory. Now if a person back then was smart enough to see that these were clearly man made superstitions. Thus he would defiantly est pork and not submit to circumcision. Do you think God would have really condemned him? It’s the same with the church. The church has a bunch of man made teachings and traditions. For example they used to have a forbidden book index. Do you think a Catholic who would’ve disobeyed and read those books would’ve been condemned by God? I don’t think so.

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:9-14

 

[Casilda]

It will well serve Orthodox and Catholics alike to study the Bible, the superstitions of men or rules as you call them were laws dictated to Moses from God, as ReubenJ so graciously provided proof for.

Sadly men today, consider Moses a mere myth or allegory. Something that is destroying the foundations of tradition, I pray that we leave the cornerstone undisturbed.

To answer your question about obedience not a virtue in itself, correct. We must test the spirits and be discerning.

 

[PluniaZ]

"Among the moral virtues, the greater the thing which a man contemns that he may adhere to God, the greater the virtue. Now there are three kinds of human goods that man may contemn for God’s sake. The lowest of these are external goods, the goods of the body take the middle place, and the highest are the goods of the soul; and among these the chief, in a way, is the will, in so far as, by his will, man makes use of all other goods. Therefore, properly speaking, the virtue of obedience, whereby we contemn our own will for God’s sake, is more praiseworthy than the other moral virtues, which contemn other goods for the sake of God.

Hence Gregory says (Moral. xxxv) that “obedience is rightly preferred to sacrifices, because by sacrifices another’s body is slain whereas by obedience we slay our own will.” Wherefore even any other acts of virtue are meritorious before God through being performed out of obedience to God’s will. For were one to suffer even martyrdom, or to give all one’s goods to the poor, unless one directed these things to the fulfilment of the divine will, which pertains directly to obedience, they could not be meritorious: as neither would they be if they were done without charity, which cannot exist apart from obedience. For it is written (1 John 2:4-5): “He who saith that he knoweth God, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar . . . but he that keepeth His word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected”: and this because friends have the same likes and dislikes."

newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm#article2