Obedience to bishop question

[Mkk01]

Hi,

I am in a predicament at my parish. A little background first and then my dilemma/question. When the GRIM came out a few years ago, our bishop asked our diocese to change some of our postures at Mass. One was asking us to stand together until the last person receives communion and then we can kneel. Obviously, there was resistance, but since he wasn’t asking us to sin, I was obedient and helped others to see that obedience to our bishop is important.

Recently, we had a new priest come in and he says that the US bishops conference allows us to kneel after communion. He says that the US bishops conference decision trumps that of the local ordinary and so we are now free to do as we wish. Since I don’t know canon law I have to assume he is right.

So here is the dilemma: I have children that I am bringing up in the faith. I want them to be faithful to their bishop who has made this request that we stand as one and wait until communion is over. But if they start to see their grandparents kneel and we don’t then they will question why. Obviously, I can explain the situation to some of the older kids, but the younger ones probably won’t understand. Am I being too worried over something small here? What should we do?

 

[Boulder257]

Here’s my two cents, but that’s about what it’s worth:

The decision is regarding a custom or practice and not anything regarding dogma or doctrine. For that reason, a Bishop has the right to instruct those under his care to do either. Therefore, if the USCCB says it is okay to kneel, but your Bishop asks you to stand, you need to listen to your Bishop.

Secondly, your Priest works for your Bishop. Just my opinion, but it seems he is walking a fine line in asking you to do something that contradicts a direct instruction from the Bishop.

I hope this helps, but I am sure that many much smarter than me will offer their advice as well.

 

[Digitonomy]

The decision is regarding a custom or practice and not anything regarding dogma or doctrine. For that reason, a Bishop has the right to instruct those under his care to do either. Therefore, if the USCCB says it is okay to kneel, but your Bishop asks you to stand, you need to listen to your Bishop.

That is not necessarily true as a general rule. There are cases where the USCCB votes on a matter that becomes particular law for the United States upon approval of the Vatican, and bishops should not be deviating from that. This is not one of those cases.

In fact, the CDW clarified a few years ago that the faithful, after receiving communion, are free to stand, kneel, or sit as they please. This is actually a notch above the USCCB, so again the bishop cannot legally deny the right of the faithful to choose one of those postures after communion. However, a bishop could request that people do so, for whatever reason - probably for the virtue of maintaining a common posture among the congregation.

So it sounds to me like the priest is technically correct, that you can legally ignore what the bishop suggested. However, unless there is good reason to do so, I don’t think it’s appropriate to ignore the bishop’s request. If the priest was simply clarifying liturgical rules, in response to a question, that’s one thing. But if the priest was actively encouraging people to ignore the bishop on this matter, I think that was out of line.

My above comments are all based on the fairly sketchy account in the OP. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation on my part, without all the facts.

 

[Brendan]

Cardinal George, acting as President of the USCCB, requested clarification on that very topic on behalf of the US Bishops.

The Vatican issued an officicial response

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typical tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem (No, for this reason). The mens [reason] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, not to regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free

.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

The best solution is to assume that your bishop is not desiring to act against the Holy See, and thus is not attempting to regulate the liturgy in such as way that you would not feel free to kneel after you return to your place.

 

[Mkk01]

That is not necessarily true as a general rule. There are cases where the USCCB votes on a matter that becomes particular law for the United States upon approval of the Vatican, and bishops should not be deviating from that. This is not one of those cases.

In fact, the CDW clarified a few years ago that the faithful, after receiving communion, are free to stand, kneel, or sit as they please. This is actually a notch above the USCCB, so again the bishop cannot legally deny the right of the faithful to choose one of those postures after communion. However, a bishop could request that people do so, for whatever reason - probably for the virtue of maintaining a common posture among the congregation.

So it sounds to me like the priest is technically correct, that you can legally ignore what the bishop suggested. However, unless there is good reason to do so, I don’t think it’s appropriate to ignore the bishop’s request. If the priest was simply clarifying liturgical rules, in response to a question, that’s one thing. But if the priest was actively encouraging people to ignore the bishop on this matter, I think that was out of line.

My above comments are all based on the fairly sketchy account in the OP. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation on my part, without all the facts.

Sorry my original post was sketchy. What you say about it being one step above the USCCB is what we were told. The reason the priest is bringing it up is since he came to our parish recently, he has been beset with requests to kneel again after communion. He is a canon lawyer, and so what he said carries weight (obviously anyone can be wrong, but it seems confirmed by you.) When asked if he told the bishop what he was going to tell us about kneeling, all he said was “this has greater authority than the bishop.”

Unfortunately, I am still in the dilemma. I want very much to do as our bishop requests, but I feel there will be very few of us standing while everyone else kneels. I don’t want my kids to be self-conscience either, as I want them to be focusing on Who they have just received, not on “why am I standing when everyone else is kneeling?”

It seems such a small thing, yet, it weighs on my heart on what to do.

 

[Brendan]

Sorry my original post was sketchy. What you say about it being one step above the USCCB is what we were told. The reason the priest is bringing it up is since he came to our parish recently, he has been beset with requests to kneel again after communion. He is a canon lawyer, and so what he said carries weight (obviously anyone can be wrong, but it seems confirmed by you.) When asked if he told the bishop what he was going to tell us about kneeling, all he said was "this has greater authority than the bishop."
Unfortunately, I am still in the dilemma. I want very much to do as our bishop requests, but I feel there will be very few of us standing while everyone else kneels. I don’t want my kids to be self-conscience either, as I want them to be focusing on Who they have just received, not on “why am I standing when everyone else is kneeling?”

It seems such a small thing, yet, it weighs on my heart on what to do.

Your priest is correct in this matter.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience to be the conforming of one’s Will to the Will of the one with authority.

The bishop has certain authority, but that authority, in matters of the Liturgy, must, in turn be subject to Rome.

That is made clear in Canon Law ( which your pastor is most certainly familiar with)

Can. 16 §1. The legislator authentically interprets laws as does the one to whom the same legislator has entrusted the power of authentically interpreting.

§2. An authentic interpretation put forth in the form of law has the same force as the law itself and must be promulgated. If it only declares the words of the law which are certain in themselves, it is retroactive; if it restricts or extends the law, or if it explains a doubtful law, it is not retroactive.

§3. An interpretation in the form of a judicial sentence or of an administrative act in a particular matter, however, does not have the force of law and only binds the persons for whom and affects the matters for which it was given.

The legislator for the General Instruction is the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Disclipine of the Sacraments. Under Canon Law, it is thus the authentic interpreter of the GIRM.

That is why Cardinal George, acting on behalf of the US Bishops, wrote to the CDWDS for clarification. The Bishops themselves, or even the USCCB, could not issue an authoratative interpretations, as the GIRM was not their own legislation.

The CDWDS issued the ruling, and thus all (including us) are required to obey.

In this particular case, being obedient means making a free choice as to your personal posture upon returning to your pew after you recieve Holy Communion. Under the authority of the Vatican, you are free to sit, kneel, or stand as you choose. Any attempt to restrict that personal authority would be an act in error.

 

[Brendan]

It seems such a small thing, yet, it weighs on my heart on what to do.

FYI, that is a GOOD thing,

Matthew 25:21

His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant.
Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities.

 

[Cristiano]

Even if I would not like the idea of having to wait to kneel I have the following comments. First, I think that the priest is wrong in discussing the topic and going against the wishes of the bishop before talking to him. Second, I see that the bishop is not giving any instruction that takes away the right of kneeling it is asking for a delay to ensure increased liturgical uniformity. Third I think that a good role model would prefer to show obedience to the bishop unless he is clearly asked to sin.

 

[Mkk01]

Even if I would not like the idea of having to wait to kneel I have the following comments. First, I think that the priest is wrong in discussing the topic and going against the wishes of the bishop before talking to him. Second, I see that the bishop is not giving any instruction that takes away the right of kneeling it is asking for a delay to ensure increased liturgical uniformity. Third I think that a good role model would prefer to show obedience to the bishop unless he is clearly asked to sin.

And now you know why the dilemma!

As to the priest not talking to him, that I can only conjecture, as he didn’t say directly that he had, nor did he say he didn’t.

All told, the bishop DID ask us to stand before the Vatican cleared up Cardinal George’s question.

 

[Cristiano]

And now you know why the dilemma!

As to the priest not talking to him, that I can only conjecture, as he didn’t say directly that he had, nor did he say he didn’t.

All told, the bishop DID ask us to stand before the Vatican cleared up Cardinal George’s question.

So now the bishop instead of telling people to stand he is telling them to wait to kneel. I see that he is trying to do what he thinks is right and he has been willing to change his instructions. If I were trying to give an example to my children I would explain what to do and why it is been done.
My impression is that some people (including myself ) fixate so much on some gesture without even having a complete understanding of the gesture form a historical, cultural, and theological point of view. I am saying this because last knight I was reading a passage from a 1965 book where the author was talking about the genuflection during Mass, it repeated some of the understanding that I have but it was a real eye opener.

 

[Digitonomy]

You certainly have a right to stand. But if I were in a parish where the priest suggested that people kneel after communion, and virtually everyone did so, I would not choose to stand out as a distraction during mass simply because I felt the priest wasn’t offering sufficient respect to the bishop. That’s a matter to be addressed in a different venue than at mass.

You can certainly make the bishop aware of what is going on, but I’m doubtful that the bishop has a leg to stand on. If he feels strongly enough about it he can directly order the priest to do it, or transfer or otherwise sanction the priest if he refuses. More likely the bishop will accept that the priest has some strong opinions on certain issues, and will not choose te escalate the matter. But it really isn’t your battle to fight.

 

[Brendan]

I would disagree. To for the bishop to do what you are claiming would be for the bishop to be deliberately acting against instructions from the Vatican.

I don’t think we know enough about the bishop in question.

That is why the safer course would be to assume that the bishop was making no attempt to regulate the liturgy in such a way that those who wished to kneel would not feel free.

After all, as the CDWDS noted, the concept of uniformity of posture stated in GRIM 43 should not be taken to an extent as to exclude kneeling, standing or sitting.

Ergo, that is what people should do. And percieved instructions from the bishop to the contrary are clearly an error in understanding what the bishop is trying to do. Assuming, of course, that one does not desire to accuse one’s bishop of disobedience to Rome.

.

 

[Mkk01]

I would disagree. To for the bishop to do what you are claiming would be for the bishop to be deliberately acting against instructions from the Vatican.

I don’t think we know enough about the bishop in question.

That is why the safer course would be to assume that the bishop was making no attempt to regulate the liturgy in such a way that those who wished to kneel would not feel free.

After all, as the CDWDS noted, the concept of uniformity of posture stated in GRIM 43 should not be taken to an extent as to exclude kneeling, standing or sitting.

Ergo, that is what people should do. And percieved instructions from the bishop to the contrary are clearly an error in understanding what the bishop is trying to do. Assuming, of course, that one does not desire to accuse one’s bishop of disobedience to Rome.

.

When we were first told by our bishop to stand, he said it came from the GRIM, and it did, because it didn’t specify what we were to do (if I recall correctly.) As to him regulating the liturgy, I don’t really think he was trying to do that. As mentioned already, he wanted us to stand “in union” with one another. THAT was his goal, and he wanted to stay in the guidelines of the GRIM. Since the correction was made (after cardinal George asked) we didn’t get any “redirection” so to speak from our bishop. Obviously, it would have been nice, but I am unaware of him issuing any change from his original request.

 

[superamazingman]

Hi,

I am in a predicament at my parish. A little background first and then my dilemma/question. When the GRIM came out a few years ago, our bishop asked our diocese to change some of our postures at Mass. One was asking us to stand together until the last person receives communion and then we can kneel. Obviously, there was resistance, but since he wasn’t asking us to sin, I was obedient and helped others to see that obedience to our bishop is important.

Recently, we had a new priest come in and he says that the US bishops conference allows us to kneel after communion. He says that the US bishops conference decision trumps that of the local ordinary and so we are now free to do as we wish. Since I don’t know canon law I have to assume he is right.

So here is the dilemma: I have children that I am bringing up in the faith. I want them to be faithful to their bishop who has made this request that we stand as one and wait until communion is over. But if they start to see their grandparents kneel and we don’t then they will question why. Obviously, I can explain the situation to some of the older kids, but the younger ones probably won’t understand. Am I being too worried over something small here? What should we do?

Your pastor is right. No one can mandate you to stand after you receive communion. There is no mandated posture. You are free to do as you wish.