Obey priest = obey Church?

[AlanFromWichita]

St. Teresa (I think it was her – it was some saint) said she would not second guess the person whose hands brought the Eucharist to her.

That was before telecommunications and Internet. Now we can look up for ourselves and find out whether our local priest and/or bishop is teaching false Doctrine – at least as far as we can tell.

Now we have the technology to go over the priest’s head. Is it a sin to use it that way? What if we do believe the priest is wrong? Should we still obey our local priest?

Has the Chain of Command been changed since her day, to allow for appeal if you don’t agree with your immediate priest?

Why should what happens in my parish affect the way it’s done in any other parish in another place, unless the different local priests direct them the same way? (Case in point: holding hands during Our Father, and even more annoyingly raising them at the doxology as a spontaneous innovation) Do we dare tell our pastor we believe he is teaching false doctrine, because we know better than he? Is it our duty to keep him informed of sins of others if he doesn’t discover them himself – direct questions from him excepted of course?

Alan

 

[stbruno]

St Francis deSales aimed to help all. He was a most intelligent, gifted and wise doctor of the soul who fully grasped the authentic nature of genuine sanctity. He wrote that many have lost perfection in the desert that had preserved it in the world. This was a paraphrase from one of his masterpieces: The Introduction to the Devout Life.

Worry and anxiety can be dominant traits or weakness for us. Most of us experience or are guilty of chronic worry or anxiety. The current generation suffers from extraordinary worry or anxiety. Why? It is our world, the pace of life, the timetables and deadlines we have caused or imposed upon ourselves. We produce much stress to meet our goals and objectives. In fact, a best seller, entitled, Stress Without Distress, is an excellent book because it helps us to understand our feelings, emotions and factors that cause havoc with our mind and body. **

We are anxious creatures to a fault and many of us worry needlessly. Some of us thrive on pressure. It drives us and motivates us. We believe that we have to be active to achieve. However, we must remember that the life of Jesus and Francis has a very important lesson for all. Sometimes we must wait as they did for the opportune time.

**Francis tells us that there are no annoyances so troublesome as when we are occupied with trifles. We worry over the littlest, and often, insignificant issues because of our natural tendency. Francis would advise us to overcome one’s nature by pleading for God’s higher, supernatural gifts. All of the masters of the spiritual life assure us that the bigger the problem, temptation, trial, cross or hardship, the greater the graces and gifts that God bestows. If we trip or fall spiritually and it is unintentional and not deliberate, it really doesn’t matter. However, we need to get up again. **

Discouragement is the dinosaur of the spiritual life because we get ‘down’ when we fall so frequently. The great spiritual masters as Francis tell us: “It is the bounce that counts”. In the spiritual life and those who are aiming to be like Jesus, perhaps discouragement is the most deteriorating and destructive happening. We give up our goals, our dreams and our vocation when we lose heart. Since union with God can be compared to climbing a mountain, we need to be prepared for a long, arduous journey that requires courage and constancy. Only prayer, love, courage, friendship and God can pick us up when we are down. God’s help and support is always available but we must believe and carry out our duties and responsibilities daily. Serving God isn’t always easy. However, charity enables and empowers us to bear it gracefully.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That is so weird you say that.

When I was watching some kids on a trampoline yesterday, I thought each bounce was like death and rebirth. Falling and leaping high. Christ’s “bounce” from hell into heaven. The more forgiven the more loved. The passion and the Resurrection. etc.

Life is hide-and-seek, peekaboo, night and day, sunday and weekday, ya da. Circle, as Harry Chapin sang about.

The seed dies and falls before it can grow into its potential.

The harder they fall (on the tramp Christ installed) the higher they bound.

Am I all off on any of this, or am I just making loose associations?

Alan

 

[mosher]

St. Thomas said that we have a grave obligation to correct a person “even if he be the pope” if we know them to be incorrect. Of course fraternal charity is the first and foremost way in which such things are approached but in some cases it is possible to have recourse to higher authorities then ones priest.

Every Catholic should have a copy of canon law to know their rights. I suggest “Canon Law Letter & Spirit” It is a very good version with litigious notes.

 

[Katie1723]

AlanFromWichita:

That is so weird you say that.

When I was watching some kids on a trampoline yesterday, I thought each bounce was like death and rebirth. Falling and leaping high. Christ’s “bounce” from hell into heaven. The more forgiven the more loved. The passion and the Resurrection. etc.

Life is hide-and-seek, peekaboo, night and day, sunday and weekday, ya da. Circle, as Harry Chapin sang about.

The seed dies and falls before it can grow into its potential.

The harder they fall (on the tramp Christ installed) the higher they bound.

Am I all off on any of this, or am I just making loose associations?

Alan

No offense Alan. But sometimes I think you have too much time on your hands.
~ Kathy ~

 

[qmvsimp]

You should be obedient to your parish priest ONLY on moral matters and matter pertaining to your parish. There is one huge exception: If the priest is doing something contrary to Canon Law or Catholic orthodoxy, then you do not have to be obedient to him.

Also, check the Catechism.

 

[JOHNYJ]

That dog won’t hunt ! One of the ways the scandal was hushed up for decades was the missuse of the Loyalty and obedience of Catholics. They were told not to report the crimes, they were told it would be bad for the church. The biggest Lie was that the church would take care of it.
Priests and bishops used the faithfuls love for the church to cover up abominations and crimes. Thats why its going to take a very, very, long time for the trust I grew up with for the church to come back.

 

[qmvsimp]

JOHNYJ:

That dog won’t hunt ! One of the ways the scandal was hushed up for decades was the missuse of the Loyalty and obedience of Catholics. They were told not to report the crimes, they were told it would be bad for the church. The biggest Lie was that the church would take care of it.
Priests and bishops used the faithfuls love for the church to cover up abominations and crimes. Thats why its going to take a very, very, long time for the trust I grew up with for the church to come back.

The dog does hunt. Read the exception. This clearly falls under that category. No one should follow his priest or Bishop blindly, but in faithfulness to God and his Church.

 

[YinYangMom]

AlanFromWichita:

St. Teresa (I think it was her – it was some saint) said she would not second guess the person whose hands brought the Eucharist to her.

That was before telecommunications and Internet. Now we can look up for ourselves and find out whether our local priest and/or bishop is teaching false Doctrine – at least as far as we can tell.

Now we have the technology to go over the priest’s head. Is it a sin to use it that way? What if we do believe the priest is wrong? Should we still obey our local priest?

Has the Chain of Command been changed since her day, to allow for appeal if you don’t agree with your immediate priest?

Why should what happens in my parish affect the way it’s done in any other parish in another place, unless the different local priests direct them the same way? (Case in point: holding hands during Our Father, and even more annoyingly raising them at the doxology as a spontaneous innovation) Do we dare tell our pastor we believe he is teaching false doctrine, because we know better than he? Is it our duty to keep him informed of sins of others if he doesn’t discover them himself – direct questions from him excepted of course?

Alan

Flawed premise, Alan.

St. Teresa was talking about not second guessing whether or not to take Communion from a priest. I raised a similar question once about the priests guilty of the sex scandals…I wondered if all those masses were invalid because of the lies the priest was hiding. But someone correctly pointed out that before the eucharistic prayers the priest steps aside from the altar and washes his hands saying, “Lord wash away my iniquities, cleanse me from my sins”. With that - the sacrifice of the mass is preserved and protected.

The rest of your question has to do with behaviors outside the sacrament of the Eucharist. That’s a different matter. If we are given a priest with flawed reasoning, we are not at fault for following his teachings, for we are called to obey first and foremost, knowing that when the priest was ordained by the Pope the Holy Spirit descended upon him. We have to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit in all things.

However, where we know, for certain, that a priest’s instructions are incorrect, then we have an obligation to mention it to him, at the very least to seek clarification about the specific practice. When he gives his explanation, nowadays, we can verify it from the Vatican website. If we find it is wrong, then we are obliged to enlighten the priest with our verified findings, to allow him the opportunity to learn. If he rejects that, then we are obliged to go to the bishop.

It’s not us going to the priests and bishops saying we know better than them. It’s us going to the priests and bishops with evidence from Rome which seems to conflict with what they are teaching - and we are asking them to show us how their teachings are helping comply with Rome’s teachings. In the process of their explanation it should become evident to them that they are in error, or that they are being defiant. In either situation, it let’s them know they have earnest followers in their flock who are watching them closely.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I just don’t get it.

Isn’t it’s the job of the priest to teach correctly?

Isn’t it the job of the bishop to ensure the priest does that?

Isn’t it the job of the Vatican to ensure the bishops do that?

Why can’t I just have faith in God’s Holy Catholic Church and accept the teaching of my local priest? Besides, how many of us have successfully changed a priest’s mind on his teachings?

Clarification is fine.

If I cannot presume that I can walk into a Catholic Church and get Catholic product, then the Church is flawed. Wal-Mart would not stand for its customers being treated outside the official company policies. They would put the local managers on notice, and get rid of them if they didn’t uphold them. Why is this such a big deal? This is the priest’s primary job and if he doesn’t do it right then he needs to shape up or ship out. You may note that I bristle at Catholic lay people who tell each other to shape up or ship out, but Catholic lay people are not official spokespeople for the Church so they aren’t “misleading little ones” like the clergy does when its members speak heresy.

I can go into a McDonalds anywhere and get a Big Mac and expect it to have “two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun.” Why can’t the Church figure this one out?

Alan

 

[ben_dy]

AlanFromWichita:

Isn’t it’s the job of the priest to teach correctly?

Yes, it is - but not all priests are brilliant theologians, faithful liturgists, or even extraordinarily gifted in catechesis. Some are, no doubt, but the majority have faults to be found in one area or another. And there are those, of course, who simply disagree with the teachings of the Magisterium and so ‘teach’ contrary to what the Church actually teaches, and this contrariness can be found for a number of reasons. One thing that we should not presuppose, I think, is that a priest is teaching contrary to the Magisterium out of self-will - it may well be ignorance or a desire to minister pastorally rather than to the flock!

AlanFromWichita:

Isn’t it the job of the bishop to ensure the priest does that?

Unlike an Abbot in a small community, the shepherd of a diocese, unfortunately, does not have the time to spend with each priest in the community. If errors are being made, the bishop may not hear of it unless it is questioned by fellow priests or by laity. The beauty of the Internet, the Catechism, the CIC, etc., is that they are available to so many these days! (I can tell you that it was rare, when I grew up, to have a 1917 CIC and a Trent Catechism handy!)

AlanFromWichita:

Isn’t it the job of the Vatican to ensure the bishops do that?

Yes, and the various congregations and the rest of the Curia, along with the Pope of course, strive to do just that. And as technological limits are becoming less ‘limited’ it may appear a simpler thing. Now if only we could get all those in Orders to spend three hours a day on the Internet… seriously, though - Rome has usually been slow to correct but if made aware of problems usually a bit quicker in the reply.

AlanFromWichita:

Why can’t I just have faith in God’s Holy Catholic Church…

You can! You should! But not blind faith! It’s an informed conscience that makes faith strong! Even should the Code of Canon Law, simple as though it seems on the surface, be but ‘Greek’ to you there are a number of laity who love nothing more than to sit and argue Canon Law into the wee hours!

Of all of John Paul II’s legacies, his greatest may well be the Catechism. Although not always as clear in English as it might be, it can be read by a layman and I would encourage all who are not involved in adult catechesis to join others in studying the Catechism.

AlanFromWichita:

and accept the teaching of my local priest? Besides, how many of us have successfully changed a priest’s mind on his teachings?

More than you’d think, probably. Yes, there are some bull-headed priests around - but most realize their limitations, most realize that they are to be obedient, and most are eager to discuss points of contention with fellow priests and with laymen.

Protestants following the teachings of men (usually jumping from one to the other until they find one with whom they can reach some agreement): we follow the teaching of a God become Man to which He entrusted His Kingdom to the Church.

Ben

 

[Donna_P]

I don’t think you could ever be wrong in following the Church. There have been Saints who had to follow their superiors (Saing Padre Pio in not celebrating Mass or writing letters) but many of those types of things dealt with behavior - not the moral or theological side of Catholicism.

 

[marmee79]

Say nothing and you will never regret it
Maybe you are making some loose connections I think journaling is a fasinating way to help yourself in this area. May I suggest a Zanga. Marmee 79

AlanFromWichita:

That is so weird you say that.

When I was watching some kids on a trampoline yesterday, I thought each bounce was like death and rebirth. Falling and leaping high. Christ’s “bounce” from hell into heaven. The more forgiven the more loved. The passion and the Resurrection. etc.

Life is hide-and-seek, peekaboo, night and day, sunday and weekday, ya da. Circle, as Harry Chapin sang about.

The seed dies and falls before it can grow into its potential.

The harder they fall (on the tramp Christ installed) the higher they bound.

Am I all off on any of this, or am I just making loose associations?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

marmee79:

Say nothing and you will never regret it
Maybe you are making some loose connections I think journaling is a fasinating way to help yourself in this area. May I suggest a Zanga. Marmee 79

Right to the point.

I love you too.

I’ll never regret saying “I do.”

Alan