Objectivity in Plato

[oikumene]

I am reading about Political Thought (Peri Roberts and Peter Sutch - Edinburgh University Press) as a concept. Plato states in *The Republic *that there is kind of Objectivity which is opposite to Relativism and Subjectivism. Plato continues to elaborate in *The Republic *the foundationalist approach. Ultimately this approach leads to the Form of Good. Plato acknowledges that the word of God is another suggestion to the foundation of morality.

So we can conclude that the Bible is the ultimate reference for the foundationalist approach.

So how come so many nations ignore the Bible as the most revealled truth close to the ultimate Truth which is God?

The way nations conduct their ‘justice’ is a far cry what Plato had thought and I am afraid this lack of ‘justice’ will be the demish of the social order. Am I correct?

 

[MindOverMatter]

So how come so many nations ignore the Bible as the most revealled truth close to the ultimate Truth which is God?

The way nations conduct their ‘justice’ is a far cry what Plato had thought and I am afraid this lack of ‘justice’ will be the demish of the social order. Am I correct?

Yes. Morality has been replaced by legalism. The problem is, if you do not advocate an objective good, then it is not true that man has done good or evil; and to say so would be a lie. If you advocate an objective good, you have to believe in God. Those Authorites who do not really believe in God, have sacrificed Bible Morality, and have replaced it with legalism, or “Law of the land” philosophy; some practice democracy or socailism. The greater good is nolonger about God. Instead; the greater Good is what ever supports the “economy”; right and wrong has nothing to do with God in this society. Of coarse, some people still believe in objective values even though they do not believe in God. But as people become more aware of what it means to not believe in God; the more probable it will be that future generations will become more currupt and will eventually usher in the age of “Nihilism”. The moon will be eclipsed, just like it is stated in Revelations. Such is the folly of humankind.

 

[Dranu]

Those Authorites who do not really believe in God, have sacrificed Bible Morality, and have replaced it with legalism, or “Law of the land” philosophy; some practice democracy or socailism. The greater good is nolonger about God. Instead; the greater Good is what ever supports the “economy”; right and wrong has nothing to do with God in this society

The irony is these mentalities are exactly what the Republic argues against. The mentalities of ‘utility’ conflicting with ‘justice’.

 

[paxromana]

Greek thought has different roots than Christian thought.

St. Augustine does a really good job at making connections between Christians and Platonists.

I have always thought the Trial of Socrates has many parallels to the Christ story.

“So how come so many nations ignore the Bible as the most revealled truth close to the ultimate Truth which is God?”

^^^^I don’t understand this question.

 

[oikumene]

“So how come so many nations ignore the Bible as the most revealled truth close to the ultimate Truth which is God?”

^^^^I don’t understand this question.

What I meant is that since Plato has acknowleded that the highest Form of Good seems to be the word of God ie The Bible (if I have understood the book that I am reading) then every nation has to endorse all the moral aspects of the Bible. What I mean is that all nations of the world adopt the 10 commandments but when we come to divorce and abortion which is in conflict with the Bible then the nations who adopt these immoral actions have to understand that they are going against the real Truth that is God and His goodness.

 

[paxromana]

Plato lived hundreds of years before Christ.

Not all nations adopt the Ten Commandments

The Greeks knew of the Jewish moral principles and rejected many of them.

 

[Dranu]

The Greeks knew of the Jewish moral principles and rejected many of them.

Greeks yes, but Plato? Maybe one could imply a few things about the family and all from teh Republic, but even Plato gives a disclaimer to that. Of course he wouldn’t follow purity laws, but he was not Jewish anyhow.

 

[Greg27]

"Plato acknowledges that the word of God is another suggestion to the foundation of morality.

So we can conclude that the Bible is the ultimate reference for the foundationalist approach.

So how come so many nations ignore the Bible as the most revealled truth close to the ultimate Truth which is God?

The way nations conduct their ‘justice’ is a far cry what Plato had thought and I am afraid this lack of ‘justice’ will be the demish of the social order. Am I correct?"

I think you make a mistake in your argument here. The first paragraph is right up to the point where you claim ‘Plato acknowledges the Word of God to be the foundation of morality.’ Plato never claimed such a thing, anywhere in his dialogues. Plato wrote his dialogues in an environment which knew nothing about the Hebrew Bible, and in fact, Plato and other Greeks regarded non-Greeks as barbarians and had a rather low regard of them, just as they had towards women and slaves. Plato’s conception of the Gods was probably agnostic, although he did seem to believe in a divine principle or principles behind the visible phenomena of the world, but this in Plato’s philosophy comes from a complex set of influences including the metaphysical speculations of Heraclitus (who argued there is a underlying ‘logos’ in the universe) and Parmenides (who argued reality is one, unchanging, immovable, finite and also that change is an illusion), Pythagoras (that numbers are the key to reality and also divine) and his teacher Socrates (moral thought).

Religion is clearly important to Plato, and mystical, mythical and magical ideas have a very powerful hold on his thought. Plato was especially mystical where mathematics was concerned; his theory of forms is probably based on his encounter with mathematics, which seemed to deal with eternal and unchanging objects. Plato also believed the soul was divine and immortal, and to see ‘true Being’ we need to leave the body behind (but Plato never said true Being is God, or that Being is personal, good, infinite, etc as theistic philosophers did). Plato is religious, yes, but he is not a ‘Moses speaking Attic’ as Philo believed, or a ‘pagan Christian.’

 

[Dranu]

Plato’s conception of the Gods was probably agnostic, although he did seem to believe in a divine principle or principles behind the visible phenomena of the world,

He seems to not care about the will of gods (Euthyphro), but rather ‘the Good’. ‘The Good’ is used in a way that is the same way we would speak of God. He posits the Good as more than just a moral foundation, but also the thing which gives all else its being/goodness/order.

(but Plato never said true Being is God, or that Being is personal, good, infinite, etc as theistic philosophers did).

He basically did (true being was ‘the Good’), except the ‘personal’ of course. He believed looking to it was the highest good for mankind, though. How one would bridge the gap between ‘the Good’ and man is another question.

Plato also believed the soul was divine and immortal, and to see ‘true Being’ we need to leave the body behind

He thinks we must use reason to see ‘being’ above in the first two sections of the divided line. But where ‘being’ derives from (the truest being) is up and above the divided line: ‘the Good’.

Although when Plato speaks of afterlife and reincarnation, they are what he strictly refers to as a story, rather than the truth. This is one of the few things St. Augustine criticizes the Platonists of the most, though I wouldn’t apply it (reincarnation) so much as a ‘doctrine’ of Plato.

‘Moses speaking Attic’ as Philo believed, or a ‘pagan Christian.’

Both of these are rather arguable. I would hesitate to call him some holy prophet (like Moses, etc.), but he was prophetic in some senses. There is a reason St. Augustine and many others have such good things to say about him.