Observations on liberalism,conservativism and how they relate to the Catholic teaching

[anthony022071]

Some people say that the terms “liberal” and “conservative” are political terms that don’t apply to the Catholic Church or its teachings. But the terms are not merely political,they denote attitudes and philosophical views which are either right or wrong,and which affect social policy preferences that have important moral implications,and affect opinions on Church doctrines and practices.

Liberalism almost always involves the rejection or transgression or undermining of worthy beliefs and traditions,natural law morality and natural order. That is,it basically involves deviation from what is true,traditional,and natural. In government policy matters,this is done under the guise of humanitarian concern for freedom and equality or pragmatism. Liberals tend to support or not oppose abortion,contraception,and homosexuality,which are violations of natural law. And their support for comprehensive government solutions for social problems (such as poverty and lack of adequate health care) and for government involvement in every aspect of life is reckless disregard for both natural law and the natural ordering of society. It amounts to government tyranny and it has bad effects on people’s moral sense and dignity. In theological and doctrinal matters,liberals tend to deviate from orthodox teaching,often in a subtle way,by understanding Church doctrine in a different sense or looking for room to develop new ideas on ambiguous matters on the fringes of defined doctrine. They tend to dislike what is called “supernaturalism”,or the belief in miracles,supernatural activity,supernatural hierarchies,angels and devils.

Conservativism has to do with keeping to worthy traditions and natural law and order. To that extent,the Catholic Church is inherently and necessarily conservative. The Church must preserve and uphold its deposit of faith and its venerable traditions,which are meaningful and promote piety and devotion and holiness. Natural law and the natural ordering of society are the basis,together with the gospel itself,of the Church’s social teaching. The gospel of love and mercy cannot be done rightly without respect for natural law and order. Conservative Catholics tend to be the people who are most loyal to the traditional teachings of the Church and who stand with the popes and bishops in upholding the right to life and the definition of marriage and social morality. Many conservative Christians who are not Catholic also are allies of the Church on these matters. Conservativism does not necessarily entail a commitment in capitalism,but it does acknowledge the natural right to acquire and keep private property and to improve one’s condition. It does not entail support for the death penalty,but it does recognize that punishments should fit offenses. Nor does it does entail an unwillingness to help the poor,but it does insist that it is best for the poor to be helped by churches,local organizations,and family members,and that people should learn to do what they can to take care of themselves,because it is natural to do so and fitting for human dignity. Conservativism is thus mainly compatible with Catholic teaching,whereas liberalism deviates from it on almost every point.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

Some people say that the terms “liberal” and “conservative” are political terms that don’t apply to the Catholic Church or its teachings. But the terms are not merely political,they denote attitudes and philosophical views which are either right or wrong,and which affect social policy preferences that have important moral implications,and affect opinions on Church doctrines and practices.

Liberalism almost always involves the rejection or transgression or undermining of worthy beliefs and traditions,natural law morality and natural order. That is,it basically involves deviation from what is true,traditional,and natural. In government policy matters,this is done under the guise of humanitarian concern for freedom and equality or pragmatism. Liberals tend to support or not oppose abortion,contraception,and homosexuality,which are violations of natural law. And their support for comprehensive government solutions for social problems (such as poverty and lack of adequate health care) and for government involvement in every aspect of life is reckless disregard for both natural law and the natural ordering of society. It amounts to government tyranny and it has bad effects on people’s moral sense and dignity. In theological and doctrinal matters,liberals tend to deviate from orthodox teaching,often in a subtle way,by understanding Church doctrine in a different sense or looking for room to develop new ideas on ambiguous matters on the fringes of defined doctrine. They tend to dislike what is called “supernaturalism”,or the belief in miracles,supernatural activity,supernatural hierarchies,angels and devils.

Conservativism has to do with keeping to worthy traditions and natural law and order. To that extent,the Catholic Church is inherently and necessarily conservative. The Church must preserve and uphold its deposit of faith and its venerable traditions,which are meaningful and promote piety and devotion and holiness. Natural law and the natural ordering of society are the basis,together with the gospel itself,of the Church’s social teaching. The gospel of love and mercy cannot be done rightly without respect for natural law and order. Conservative Catholics tend to be the people who are most loyal to the traditional teachings of the Church and who stand with the popes and bishops in upholding the right to life and the definition of marriage and social morality. Many conservative Christians who are not Catholic also are allies of the Church on these matters. Conservativism does not necessarily entail a commitment in capitalism,but it does acknowledge the natural right to acquire and keep private property and to improve one’s condition. It does not entail support for the death penalty,but it does recognize that punishments should fit offenses. Nor does it does entail an unwillingness to help the poor,but it does insist that it is best for the poor to be helped by churches,local organizations,and family members,and that people should learn to do what they can to take care of themselves,because it is natural to do so and fitting for human dignity. Conservativism is thus mainly compatible with Catholic teaching,whereas liberalism deviates from it on almost every point.

I don’t know what drives me more crazy, rants like this that are not based on facts, or liberals who allow those who call themselves conservative to mischaracterize the liberal position.

The term liberal means generous. Liberalism is not the opposite of conservatism. Progressivism is the opposite of conservatism. As a liberal I sometimes support progress and sometime support conservation. The past was neither perfectly good nor perfectly evil.

In my life, for example, I can honestly say that it is my Catholic faith the led me to be a liberal (a good portion of the Catholic faith is about being generous for God has been generous to us) which has led me to have mainly conservative positions in the Catholic faith. I am first a Catholic, second a liberal, and third a conservative in my Catholic faith. (Politically, it is a different story, but the Catholic Church is traditionally more liberal than my country.)

The Church has always been largely liberal by the root meaning of the word. But the Church cannot afford, nor has ever been, purely conservative. Even in the Bible we see Paul fighting for progressive causes such as not having gentiles circumcised, etc. The Church has a responsibility to ‘become all things to all people’. And that sometimes means having to make difficult changes even as we hold tighter to the things that are at the core of the Catholic faith. The Church has made many such progressive changes in its 2000 year history and much of what was once progressive has since become conservative.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I have to agree with Tony the Mad (never thought I’d say that!)…

Firstly, I think you’re equivocating on categories, mixing the religious with the political. For example, you say that “Liberals tend to support or not oppose abortion, contraception, and homosexuality”, yet these are essentially political positions, not religious (theological) ones. Such a person could very well be a theological conservative, e.g. believing the Pentateuch was written by Moses, that the world was literally created in six days, etc.

Secondly, I don’t think using language that is political or theological, like “liberal” or “conservative”, is helpful in describing the life of a religious person, simply because a liberal Catholic can still be orthodox (Fr Raymond Brown), just as a conservative Catholic can be heretical (Fr Feeney).

Personally, I think we need both elements in a genuine life of faith. Even if we just survey Christ’s life in the New Testament, we can see elements of both liberalism and conservatism. What is important, rather, is recognising that the Catholic faith is rooted in Scripture, Tradition and Magisterial authority and accepting these.

I also like what Chesterton says:

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.

 

[St_Francis]

Both liberalism and conservatism as ways of thought are based on the thinking of the so-called Enlightenment, which was a series of attempts to get away from or substitute something else for Catholicism.

There are only so many political positions which can be taken—esp if one thinks that there are only two possible answers and one of them is wrong—but the reality is that of course Church teaching will align with some proposals emanating from a post-Catholic civilization. There are still some lingering effects of Catholicism on Western societies.

So, the Church teaches that we are obliged to help those in need; thus, when a political party says it wants to help those in need, the Church finds itself in agreement, but what has happened is that the political party agrees with the Church, not the other way around. The Church has taught that we should help the poor for longer than either political party or even the US itself has even existed.

 

[bingbell484]

I don’t know what drives me more crazy, rants like this that are not based on facts, or liberals who allow those who call themselves conservative to mischaracterize the liberal position.

The term liberal means generous. Liberalism is not the opposite of conservatism. Progressivism is the opposite of conservatism. As a liberal I sometimes support progress and sometime support conservation. The past was neither perfectly good nor perfectly evil.

In my life, for example, I can honestly say that it is my Catholic faith the led me to be a liberal (a good portion of the Catholic faith is about being generous for God has been generous to us) which has led me to have mainly conservative positions in the Catholic faith. I am first a Catholic, second a liberal, and third a conservative in my Catholic faith. (Politically, it is a different story, but the Catholic Church is traditionally more liberal than my country.)

The Church has always been largely liberal by the root meaning of the word. But the Church cannot afford, nor has ever been, purely conservative. Even in the Bible we see Paul fighting for progressive causes such as not having gentiles circumcised, etc. The Church has a responsibility to ‘become all things to all people’. And that sometimes means having to make difficult changes even as we hold tighter to the things that are at the core of the Catholic faith. The Church has made many such progressive changes in its 2000 year history and much of what was once progressive has since become conservative.

Well said Tony. The OP is demonstrative of a strategy used by the political right. They want religious conservatives to believe that to be a good Christian is to be a solid conservative. You see this everyday on forums where Christians easily and willingly abandon the church’s teaching on the poor and the responsibility we have to the least of our brothers.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Some people say that the terms “liberal” and “conservative” are political terms that don’t apply to the Catholic Church or its teachings. But the terms are not merely political,they denote attitudes and philosophical views which are either right or wrong,and which affect social policy preferences that have important moral implications,and affect opinions on Church doctrines and practices.

Liberalism almost always involves the rejection or transgression or undermining of worthy beliefs and traditions,natural law morality and natural order. That is,it basically involves deviation from what is true,traditional,and natural. In government policy matters,this is done under the guise of humanitarian concern for freedom and equality or pragmatism. Liberals tend to support or not oppose abortion,contraception,and homosexuality,which are violations of natural law. And their support for comprehensive government solutions for social problems (such as poverty and lack of adequate health care) and for government involvement in every aspect of life is reckless disregard for both natural law and the natural ordering of society. It amounts to government tyranny and it has bad effects on people’s moral sense and dignity. In theological and doctrinal matters,liberals tend to deviate from orthodox teaching,often in a subtle way,by understanding Church doctrine in a different sense or looking for room to develop new ideas on ambiguous matters on the fringes of defined doctrine. They tend to dislike what is called “supernaturalism”,or the belief in miracles,supernatural activity,supernatural hierarchies,angels and devils.

Conservativism has to do with keeping to worthy traditions and natural law and order. To that extent,the Catholic Church is inherently and necessarily conservative. The Church must preserve and uphold its deposit of faith and its venerable traditions,which are meaningful and promote piety and devotion and holiness. Natural law and the natural ordering of society are the basis,together with the gospel itself,of the Church’s social teaching. The gospel of love and mercy cannot be done rightly without respect for natural law and order. Conservative Catholics tend to be the people who are most loyal to the traditional teachings of the Church and who stand with the popes and bishops in upholding the right to life and the definition of marriage and social morality. Many conservative Christians who are not Catholic also are allies of the Church on these matters. Conservativism does not necessarily entail a commitment in capitalism,but it does acknowledge the natural right to acquire and keep private property and to improve one’s condition. It does not entail support for the death penalty,but it does recognize that punishments should fit offenses. Nor does it does entail an unwillingness to help the poor,but it does insist that it is best for the poor to be helped by churches,local organizations,and family members,and that people should learn to do what they can to take care of themselves,because it is natural to do so and fitting for human dignity. Conservativism is thus mainly compatible with Catholic teaching,whereas liberalism deviates from it on almost every point.

That’s it in a nutshell…you nailed it!

 

[april32010]

Well said Tony. The OP is demonstrative of a strategy used by the political right. They want religious conservatives to believe that to be a good Christian is to be a solid conservative. You see this everyday on forums where Christians easily and willingly abandon the church’s teaching on the poor and the responsibility we have to the least of our brothers.

 

[Obsculta]

Politics is far too immoral to me. I am human and weak and if pushed too hard on certain issues I can be made to hate. I am also burned out by our modern political scene. I just don’t want to do or think anything political anymore.

One thing always comes to mind when politics comes up; that is Jesus saying we do not belong to the world any more than he belongs to the world. It makes me think I should not vote but just live my life in a Christian way.

 

[tbcrawford]

I don’t know what drives me more crazy, rants like this that are not based on facts, or liberals who allow those who call themselves conservative to mischaracterize the liberal position.

The term liberal means generous. Liberalism is not the opposite of conservatism. Progressivism is the opposite of conservatism. As a liberal I sometimes support progress and sometime support conservation. The past was neither perfectly good nor perfectly evil.

In my life, for example, I can honestly say that it is my Catholic faith the led me to be a liberal (a good portion of the Catholic faith is about being generous for God has been generous to us) which has led me to have mainly conservative positions in the Catholic faith. I am first a Catholic, second a liberal, and third a conservative in my Catholic faith. (Politically, it is a different story, but the Catholic Church is traditionally more liberal than my country.)

The Church has always been largely liberal by the root meaning of the word. But the Church cannot afford, nor has ever been, purely conservative. Even in the Bible we see Paul fighting for progressive causes such as not having gentiles circumcised, etc. The Church has a responsibility to ‘become all things to all people’. And that sometimes means having to make difficult changes even as we hold tighter to the things that are at the core of the Catholic faith. The Church has made many such progressive changes in its 2000 year history and much of what was once progressive has since become conservative.

Spot on!!

 

[tbcrawford]

Well said Tony. The OP is demonstrative of a strategy used by the political right. They want religious conservatives to believe that to be a good Christian is to be a solid conservative. You see this everyday on forums where Christians easily and willingly abandon the church’s teaching on the poor and the responsibility we have to the least of our brothers.

 

[johnnyc176]

Acceptance of homosexual marriage, abortion and euthanasia are also associated with liberal politics. If you believe the the teachings of the Catholic Church are the teachings of Jesus than I am not sure how you can claim to be liberal (or conservative). Of course, you can always claim that some of the Church’s teachings are more important than others to support your particular political ideology (liberal, conservative, etc.) I guess.

 

[anthony022071]

I don’t know what drives me more crazy, rants like this that are not based on facts, or liberals who allow those who call themselves conservative to mischaracterize the liberal position.

It wasn’t a rant. I was making observations about the nature of liberalism and conservativism.

The term liberal means generous. Liberalism is not the opposite of conservatism. Progressivism is the opposite of conservatism. As a liberal I sometimes support progress and sometime support conservation. The past was neither perfectly good nor perfectly evil.

I was talking about the philosophical and social views and attitudes that are called liberal. It is not about being generous.

The word “progressive” appears once in the Bible,in a letter of St. Paul,and it is used sarcastically to refer to people who had deviated from authentic doctrines.

Moving away from old ways or conserving them not say anything about right or wrong.

In my life, for example, I can honestly say that it is my Catholic faith the led me to be a liberal (a good portion of the Catholic faith is about being generous for God has been generous to us) which has led me to have mainly conservative positions in the Catholic faith. I am first a Catholic, second a liberal, and third a conservative in my Catholic faith. (Politically, it is a different story, but the Catholic Church is traditionally more liberal than my country.)

Again,I was talking about liberalism as philosophical and social views and attitudes.

The Church has always been largely liberal by the root meaning of the word. But the Church cannot afford, nor has ever been, purely conservative. Even in the Bible we see Paul fighting for progressive causes such as not having gentiles circumcised, etc.

That was not a progressive cause,it was about the fact that the Jewish Christians were no longer subject to the prescriptions of the Jewish law.

The Church has a responsibility to ‘become all things to all people’. And that sometimes means having to make difficult changes even as we hold tighter to the things that are at the core of the Catholic faith. The Church has made many such progressive changes in its 2000 year history and much of what was once progressive has since become conservative.

The changes that are legitimately made in the Church are not about progressivism.

 

[St_Francis]

Well said Tony. The OP is demonstrative of a strategy used by the political right. They want religious conservatives to believe that to be a good Christian is to be a solid conservative. You see this everyday on forums where Christians easily and willingly abandon the church’s teaching on the poor and the responsibility we have to the least of our brothers.

At the same time, I see a similar strategy from the politically liberal, who propose that we can relegate moral issues related to life and family to individual choices and the only teachings the government should be at all involved wity are those related to poverty, and that certain methods for dealing with the issue of poverty are the only ones which comport with Christianity, so if one doesn’t agree with the politically liberal, one is a really bad Christian.

To me, both the liberals and the conservatives in the US are seriously lacking.

 

[anthony022071]

Both liberalism and conservatism as ways of thought are based on the thinking of the so-called Enlightenment, which was a series of attempts to get away from or substitute something else for Catholicism.

Liberalism and conservatism as ways of thought both preceded the 18th century in essence,even though they were not defined. Conservatism is about upholding natural law morality,natural social order traditional teachings and venerable traditions. Liberalism is about the tendency to neglect or abandon these things in preference for modern and more secular ways. Throughout the history of Western civilizations there have always been people who showed either of those ways of thought.

There are only so many political positions which can be taken—esp if one thinks that there are only two possible answers and one of them is wrong—but the reality is that of course Church teaching will align with some proposals emanating from a post-Catholic civilization. There are still some lingering effects of Catholicism on Western societies.

So, the Church teaches that we are obliged to help those in need; thus, when a political party says it wants to help those in need, the Church finds itself in agreement, but what has happened is that the political party agrees with the Church, not the other way around. The Church has taught that we should help the poor for longer than either political party or even the US itself has even existed.

When a political party says it wants to help those in need,it does so to gain political support from people who want the government to be helping them or others. It is not about true compassion or true social justice. The leaders of the Church do not always agree with politicians that claim to want to help the needy. The manner and extent to which the government should intervene in people’s lives is open to debate.

 

[FormerXCatholic]

I’m leaning more towards what the original poster said. Liberalism in this modern day means to eliminate natural law and boundaries. I don’t care what it meant, for example, back during the American revolutionary war when it was “liberal” to fight for freedom. Today it clearly means something different and most people understand that.

Also, those people who claim to be liberal catholics need to think about how the so called “generosity” is implemented. First, money is stolen from the people through the tax system and distributed in a “feed him a fish, without teaching him how to fish” process. Maybe it helps the poor for one day, but what about the next day? Are we supposed to be perpetually feeding the poor day after day? And isn’t it wrong to steal “charity” money? Did Jesus believe tax collectors were instituting charity? I don’t think so.

Liberals also have a strange definition of poor. I was taught that helping the poor was to help people who were incapable of helping themselves, in which case conservatives and liberals should agree.

Abortion Is a crime against humanity That marginalizes the poor, why liberals defend it so much is odd. Gay marriage arguments can only be made if you think government ought to have authority over our marriage, hetero or gay. A righteous government shouldn’t be handing out licenses for marriage at all. A righteous government should see us as individuals, not couples.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Politics is far too immoral to me. I am human and weak and if pushed too hard on certain issues I can be made to hate. I am also burned out by our modern political scene. I just don’t want to do or think anything political anymore.

One thing always comes to mind when politics comes up; that is Jesus saying we do not belong to the world any more than he belongs to the world. It makes me think I should not vote but just live my life in a Christian way.

I agree. It’s scary to realize how much real hate is out there, both on MSNBC and Fox News. It dominates the whole political scene. I think people actually get kind of a high from it - I engage in it myself and then feel horrible about it. Thing is you can’t really avoid it unless you just stop caring about everything. I personally feel that disengaging from it all is actually worse. I’d rather repent of anger than indifference.

The liberals are undeniably out of control on the social issues (abortion, gay marriage, contraception on demand) and that is starting to constitute a real threat to liberty and the fundamental structure of US democracy. But I equally can’t stand the way conservatives cling to the free market in such a naïve self-deceiving way that is so contradictory to the basic teachings of Christianity. Jesus would have absolutely no kinship with those who display such indifference to the poor. (Romney comes to mind.)

I just read the below article about David Schindler (don’t know anything about him). Very interesting. Not sure if I agree with him yet, but am going to check him out further.

theimaginativeconservative.org/2013/05/philosopher-of-love-david-schindler.html

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The Church has a responsibility to ‘become all things to all people’. And that sometimes means having to make difficult changes even as we hold tighter to the things that are at the core of the Catholic faith. The Church has made many such progressive changes in its 2000 year history and much of what was once progressive has since become conservative.

I certainly don’t buy this. It’s this very rationale that has led many liberal Catholics to demand that the Church change its teachings on abortion and homosexuality to conform to the abortionist and the homosexual demands.

You seem to be out of touch with what is going on inside and outside the Catholic Church.

Yes, liberal does mean generous. But it doesn’t mean being generous to the point of caving in to the demands of the lunatic fringe. And that is what liberals are up to today. They like spending money too … mostly other people’s money on their “worthy” causes. More often than not, their worthy causes are themselves. Have you never noticed that it depends not how much money the government spends, poverty is still rampant and growing?

How is that working for the liberals? Spend more money until there is no money left to spend?

Here is an example of liberal apostasy.

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10633145/Welby-tells-Church-refusing-gay-blessings-will-be-viewed-like-racism.html