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Et_Cetera
Guest
I was just thinking about how sometimes people are told to avoid something as it might be a cause of scandal, but why does it really matter what others think? Your morality is between you and God.
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T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
A T. S. Elliot fan, I perceive. . .
I beg to differ, though. Your morality is not --and never was or will be --solely 'between you and God alone. God Himself tells us this in giving us the Two (not just ‘One’) Great Commandments: First: “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength” (Yes, here is the “between you and God” part). Second (aha) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”.
It is not ‘loving your neighbor’ to be giving that neighbor an ‘occasion of sin’ through scandal or anything else. . .such as ‘cooperation’ in aiding him/her to sin, or a refusal to ‘speak up’ about sin lest it ‘hurt someone’s feelings’, etc.
Human beings are social beings. . .and we need to 'be our brother’s (and sister’s) keepers. God told us that from the beginning.
I beg to differ, though. Your morality is not --and never was or will be --solely 'between you and God alone. God Himself tells us this in giving us the Two (not just ‘One’) Great Commandments: First: “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength” (Yes, here is the “between you and God” part). Second (aha) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”.
It is not ‘loving your neighbor’ to be giving that neighbor an ‘occasion of sin’ through scandal or anything else. . .such as ‘cooperation’ in aiding him/her to sin, or a refusal to ‘speak up’ about sin lest it ‘hurt someone’s feelings’, etc.
Human beings are social beings. . .and we need to 'be our brother’s (and sister’s) keepers. God told us that from the beginning.
E
Et_Cetera
Guest
Eliot is tied as my favorite poet. Anyhow, why does it matter what people think I do when I live with my boyfriend? We could be purer than pure or having sex every night. It is none of their business.
F
FickleFreckled
Guest
“Giving scandal” doesn’t so much refer to what others think of you or how they judge you. It refers to your ability to influence others by your behavior and the disrespect of flagrantly refusing to follow the accepted law or moral code. Mostly today it refers to influencing others by your behavior.
Luke 17:1-2
He said to His disciples “Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”
Luke 17:1-2
He said to His disciples “Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
It does matter.
And it is ‘our business’ as human beings. As human beings we are concerned not only with the state of our soul, but with the state of our ‘neighbor’s soul.’ Not in a punitive, aggressive, “you sinner!” way, but in a loving, helpful, “my brother/my sister, you’re in danger; if you don’t want my help I won’t force you, but I also won’t let you go into danger blindly” way.
This country has seen now a few decades of living ‘the way I like, because it’s nobody’s business’ and it has led to countless thousands of impressionable young people --from infancy onward–being exposed to vice and sin. . .and that vice and sin not presented as abnormal and wrong, but as so ‘normal’ that people shouldn’t even pay ‘attention’ because, “It’s nobody’s business what my boyfriend and I do!”
If you’re living with your boyfriend without being married. . .and yes, even if you’re living ‘chastely’. . .what message do you think that sends to the little children, the teens and other young adults that you don’t even know but who ‘know’ you from seeing you as neighbors?
You don’t live solely ‘for yourself’ or ‘for yourself and your boyfriend.’ You live in a society, and your actions leave an impression on society. Good actions leave good impressions. Bad actions leave bad impressions. The more ‘good’ actions, the better society will usually come to be. The more ‘bad’ actions, the worse society will usually come to be.
The more we live selfishly (and this is really a self-centered attitude as the people involved really don’t seem to either know or care if others are negatively affected, as they think it is** only their business)**–the more selfish we grow and the more selfish others grow as well.
You could, indeed, be living ‘pure as the driven snow’. Why people must needs ‘live together’ instead of apart until the marriage is most probably economic --the idea of maintaining ‘two’ separate places probably seems ridiculous when people could ‘save’ by having just ‘one’ place. . .but money and economics aren’t everything (and believe me, I am dirt poor myself so I’m not speaking from the ivory tower standpoint of somebody who’s never had to scrimp, save and even go hungry and cold on a regular basis).
Living together without being married is dangerous. One falls into ‘occasions of sin’ and while one might be able to fight them off, there is always the chance of losing a battle. . .and the more battles there are, the greater the chance of eventual loss.
Sin is usually presented as ‘glamorous’ and quite often as ‘innocent’ in nature. . .it’s the ‘dirty-minded’ we seek to ‘blame’ for the situation, not the person’s own choice in choosing to live with a boyfriend/girlfriend. IOW, it seems that they want to have the moral comfort and superiority of ‘doing the right thing’ even though it LOOKS ‘scandalous’ and turning the ones scandalized not into their victims but into the sinners themselves. I don’t think that is right, nor is it charitable, to blame others for making the reasonable supposition that two people, male and female, calling themselves boyfriend and girlfriend, and living in the same place, are possibly (though not certainly) living in sin. . .because the appearance of the sin is there. Remember, observation is not necessarily 'judgment. This is why I’m pointing out to you that there is a danger. It is a danger not only to those who in all reason and fairness are REASONABLE in assuming that you COULD be living in sin because the majority of men and women in that situation are indeed living in sin, even if you personally were not. It is a danger in that you are ignoring their being scandalized and indeed turning them into the ‘villians’ of the piece for ‘not minding their own business.’
A woman should not be living with a boyfriend (or a man with a girlfriend) outside of marriage. I’m sure people think they have excellent reasons for doing this, particularly if they are not ‘intimate’. . .but all those aside, you know it has the appearance of scandal, and you know that in the last 40 years or so it has been the incredible explosion of people who DO live outside of marriage in sin which has been a cause of many dreadful breakdowns in society, and further led to more people committing this same sin because it was become so ‘commonplace’. And many Christians have fought against this ‘societal assumption’ that this situation is ‘fine’ or 'nobody’s business but the couple’s. And that fight is made harder every time another couple does this, even if it is only in ‘appearance’.
So. . . it matters. You may not be guilty of personal sexual sin, but the scandal remains. . .and the danger for you remains. . .and may God protect you and guide you to doing the right thing.
And it is ‘our business’ as human beings. As human beings we are concerned not only with the state of our soul, but with the state of our ‘neighbor’s soul.’ Not in a punitive, aggressive, “you sinner!” way, but in a loving, helpful, “my brother/my sister, you’re in danger; if you don’t want my help I won’t force you, but I also won’t let you go into danger blindly” way.
This country has seen now a few decades of living ‘the way I like, because it’s nobody’s business’ and it has led to countless thousands of impressionable young people --from infancy onward–being exposed to vice and sin. . .and that vice and sin not presented as abnormal and wrong, but as so ‘normal’ that people shouldn’t even pay ‘attention’ because, “It’s nobody’s business what my boyfriend and I do!”
If you’re living with your boyfriend without being married. . .and yes, even if you’re living ‘chastely’. . .what message do you think that sends to the little children, the teens and other young adults that you don’t even know but who ‘know’ you from seeing you as neighbors?
You don’t live solely ‘for yourself’ or ‘for yourself and your boyfriend.’ You live in a society, and your actions leave an impression on society. Good actions leave good impressions. Bad actions leave bad impressions. The more ‘good’ actions, the better society will usually come to be. The more ‘bad’ actions, the worse society will usually come to be.
The more we live selfishly (and this is really a self-centered attitude as the people involved really don’t seem to either know or care if others are negatively affected, as they think it is** only their business)**–the more selfish we grow and the more selfish others grow as well.
You could, indeed, be living ‘pure as the driven snow’. Why people must needs ‘live together’ instead of apart until the marriage is most probably economic --the idea of maintaining ‘two’ separate places probably seems ridiculous when people could ‘save’ by having just ‘one’ place. . .but money and economics aren’t everything (and believe me, I am dirt poor myself so I’m not speaking from the ivory tower standpoint of somebody who’s never had to scrimp, save and even go hungry and cold on a regular basis).
Living together without being married is dangerous. One falls into ‘occasions of sin’ and while one might be able to fight them off, there is always the chance of losing a battle. . .and the more battles there are, the greater the chance of eventual loss.
Sin is usually presented as ‘glamorous’ and quite often as ‘innocent’ in nature. . .it’s the ‘dirty-minded’ we seek to ‘blame’ for the situation, not the person’s own choice in choosing to live with a boyfriend/girlfriend. IOW, it seems that they want to have the moral comfort and superiority of ‘doing the right thing’ even though it LOOKS ‘scandalous’ and turning the ones scandalized not into their victims but into the sinners themselves. I don’t think that is right, nor is it charitable, to blame others for making the reasonable supposition that two people, male and female, calling themselves boyfriend and girlfriend, and living in the same place, are possibly (though not certainly) living in sin. . .because the appearance of the sin is there. Remember, observation is not necessarily 'judgment. This is why I’m pointing out to you that there is a danger. It is a danger not only to those who in all reason and fairness are REASONABLE in assuming that you COULD be living in sin because the majority of men and women in that situation are indeed living in sin, even if you personally were not. It is a danger in that you are ignoring their being scandalized and indeed turning them into the ‘villians’ of the piece for ‘not minding their own business.’
A woman should not be living with a boyfriend (or a man with a girlfriend) outside of marriage. I’m sure people think they have excellent reasons for doing this, particularly if they are not ‘intimate’. . .but all those aside, you know it has the appearance of scandal, and you know that in the last 40 years or so it has been the incredible explosion of people who DO live outside of marriage in sin which has been a cause of many dreadful breakdowns in society, and further led to more people committing this same sin because it was become so ‘commonplace’. And many Christians have fought against this ‘societal assumption’ that this situation is ‘fine’ or 'nobody’s business but the couple’s. And that fight is made harder every time another couple does this, even if it is only in ‘appearance’.
So. . . it matters. You may not be guilty of personal sexual sin, but the scandal remains. . .and the danger for you remains. . .and may God protect you and guide you to doing the right thing.
L
LilyM
Guest
The point is that our example can influence or even cause others to sin. And for that we are guilty like someone who influences or causes someone else to commit a crime are considered to be guilty.
Jesus said ‘woe to him who CAUSES one of these little ones to sin’ - Mark 9:42. Obviously He isn’t talking about causing in the sense of FORCING, for what these children did would never, if forced, actually BE sin. He’s actually talking about influencing by bad example.
Jesus said ‘woe to him who CAUSES one of these little ones to sin’ - Mark 9:42. Obviously He isn’t talking about causing in the sense of FORCING, for what these children did would never, if forced, actually BE sin. He’s actually talking about influencing by bad example.
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?”
E
Et_Cetera
Guest
Thank you for your replies. I appreciate them.
B
Biggie
Guest
Well, we are the Straw Men, and for us it depends on which eyes we are seeing with.Eliot is tied as my favorite poet. Anyhow, why does it matter what people think I do when I live with my boyfriend? We could be purer than pure or having sex every night. It is none of their business.
G
gmarie21
Guest
I do understand, however, where I take issue with some of my peers is that they are quick to point out this relationship or that relationship, yet not paying attention to the sinful example of gossip they are displaying when speaking with others about their assumptions about this or that relationship. And yes, gossip is a HUGE problem even among the most devout Catholics, yet many fail to recognize this sin within themselves. I work in childcare and let me just say, kids mimic ALL they see and especially hear, and many parents are displaying gossip to the point where their children repeat it to their friends and even myself. And I’m sure they’re not the only children who do this. I think many fail to recognize that gossip is one of the first sins children are exposed to on a regular basis, but yet, gossip continues in abundance.The point is that our example can influence or even cause others to sin. And for that we are guilty like someone who influences or causes someone else to commit a crime are considered to be guilty.
Jesus said ‘woe to him who CAUSES one of these little ones to sin’ - Mark 9:42. Obviously He isn’t talking about causing in the sense of FORCING, for what these children did would never, if forced, actually BE sin. He’s actually talking about influencing by bad example.
J
JonathanEdwards
Guest
Yes, it does matter. If I’m sharing the Gospel with somebody but then going out and living like the world, then not only do I make myself a hypocrite, which is a sin, in itself, but I lose my credibility to present the Gospel to them.I was just thinking about how sometimes people are told to avoid something as it might be a cause of scandal, but why does it really matter what others think? Your morality is between you and God.
What’s much worse is that the name of God is “blasphemed among the [the unsaved]”, as Paul would say.
Paul, in his letter to the Romans, explains that we were created by God for two reasons: to fellowship with Him, and to be a model to creation of His communicable attributes.
For instance, we can love because God is love. We show compassion because God is compassionate. We become angry at injustice because God is angry at injustice, etc.
That’s why God is so angry about sin and why He punishes it so harshly.
When we sin, we claim by our actions that God takes part in that sinful behavior, too.
So just as we show God’s attributes by our good behavior, our bad behavior makes God appear to be bad.
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