Occasionalism? Philosophers, Help!

[Struggling]

Is it acceptable for Catholics to believe in an Occasionalist theory of causality, or at least a modified version? And if not, how else is causation reconcilled with absolutely sovereign Providence?

I can see how God is not, directly, needed to bring sense perceptions to the soul. The soul can, by it’s own nature, “see” what is being presented to it by the brain. As long as we admit that God, in His Providence, can control those perceptions and what is being presented.

So I don’t see a need for occasionalism in explaining the connection of physical-to-spiritual effects.

But for spiritual-to-physical effects…how else can it be explained?

Our soul can will that our hand move to steal something, I guess, but really all that seems to be truly independently made is the MORAL choice (whether we commit the sin or not).

Whether we actually FOLLOW THROUGH, in the material world, with that act of the will seems entirely out of our control. God, in His Providence, could have us go paralyzed at that instant, have a different set of neurons fire instead of the ones we willed, etc…leaving only the moral choice truly up to us.

So I can see how the brain can “talk up” effecting the soul, but I don’t see how the soul could “talk down” effecting matter without God’s Providence intermediately consenting to it.

One reason why I believe the mystical experience is by it’s nature ineffable: it is not experienced by the physical brain, only by the soul. So the soul cannot explain it truly in words because the brain does not supply any words it can use (and the soul can certainly not create new words to do it…it has to use the tools the brain presents it with…we know this from left-brain/right-brain studies)

So…since God controls everything except our free will (in the material realm especially) how can our soul effect our body without a direct act of Providence agreeing with the willed effect. When some neurons reach a juncture where “yes” or “no” is an option, and soul (percieving this choice) chooses “yes”…what can we say necessarily connects this choice back to the brain actually following the “yes” path except a direct act of God’s providence happening to agree with the Will?

 

[Struggling]

There is a famous claim by an Arab philosopher: “when fire and cotton are placed in contact, the cotton is burned directly by God, not by the fire.”

And I have sympathy with that position.

It resonates with me. Because knowing that Providence exists…I know that the cotton would not burn unless God willed it too. And a few times God has, in fact, willed it not to burn (we call these “miracles” but to me they are really Acts of ordinary Providence that simply fall outside the standard patterns).

Science tells us that things happening are not really laws, but merely huge probabilities: there is a small chance that all the air particles in the room will congregate in one corner and I will suffocate.

And to me, it seems to be patterns of Providence.

We are told by science that every particle very often has to make a “choice” of being in one state or another. Science can find no deterministic answer for why the particle chooses one state over another, so there are three theories: 1) some sort of “pure chance” or arbitrary “free will” on the part of the particle, 2) a new universe is created (one with each possibility) each time a particle makes a choice, and 3) God decides and that is what we mean by “Providence,” at least over the material world.

And I choose to believe it is Providence. But there is a very small probability (and science even admits this) that when fire and cotton are placed in contact…the “choices” of the particles will accumulate in such a way that the cotton does not burn. There is a small chance that they will bump together in such a way as to make the cotton get COLDER, a tiny chance that the cotton particles will provide energy outward into the fire, instead of the fire pushing it inward. Therefore, it seems that the necessity implied by causation is not attributable to mere matter, but only to the direct action of Providence, the direct action of God willing particle “choices” in such a way as to either (usually) cause the cotton to burn, or (less usually) make it get colder. God willing the fire to effect the cotton to blacken when the fire touches it, or having the particle choices line up in such a way that the cotton doesn’t blacken (a possibility even with a godless pure-chance, but not probable)…There is a small chance we could walk through a wall, if all the particles chose the correct allignment all at once…so it seems the causality of any particular event can only be explained by God’s providence directly willing it. The two possible choices the particles make being only an “occasion” for God to pick one of the two…

 

[Struggling]

Anyone?

 

[Nullasalus]

I have to say, I’m very interested in what you’re asking - but at the same time, it’s beyond me. Hopefully one of the heavy-hitter Catholic apologists here will have something to say.

 

[Zahmir]

Ok… Wow.

Struggling… you have some pretty intense philosophical ideas. You most certainly have a vibrant mind and I don’t want to do anything to smother it.

I also had similar inquiries, which led me to research “bio-quantum mechanics” or something crazy like that. Primarily, your issue seems to deal with just this, “quantum mechanics.”

Quatum mechanics is the only science (imo) where philosophy and theology are not only useful but possible answers to the difficult questions that are posed.

As to respond to your inquiries, it is a very Catholic thing to believe that God sustains us and keeps us alive. All life and everything that makes us who we are derives from God, not just at the moment of creation, but in our daily lives, this very second, this very moment in time. Without God’s constant love and giving of Himself, we would be nothing. We simply would not exist.

What you seem to be asking… how can our soul interact with our bodies without some “intervention” on the part of God? How can we bridge the gap between the spiritual and physical? Is this what you’re asking, because i’m going to attempt to answer these questions?

There is a soul. There is a body. Somehow, our soul animates our body. We can make decisions and make our body move. How does this happen?

Hm… obviously you can see where quantum mechanics approaches the discovery theological truths. It is very quite interesting.

sigh The question is hard. And I’m not nearly smart enough to answer the quesetion directly. But, let me throw some things out there.

We are responsible for our actions. Everything we choose to do, we CHOOSE to do. We make a choice, and our body moves, not because God “allows it” or “makes it happen” but because we choose to. We can choose to do evil and we can choose to do good.

It would be wrong to say that all actions derive from God, however. To me, it seems a better answer would be that God has “made us in his image and likeness.” He has given us that divine spark (no pun intended) to ignite our bodies into motion.

On the other hand, the “handing over” of this divine spark is constant, as I said. We are dependent on God for this, for what is His. Although he is what sustains us, we make our own choices apart from Him and without His “consent” or “permission.” He loves us so much and always that he keeps this divine spark in us, even when we commit horrible acts.

More concisely, yes, God is constantly “renewing us” and “handing over” the gifts of His creation. By virtue of this, we can act. Our souls can make a decision and animate our bodies, but God is in no way responsible for the evils we commit apart from Him.

And in other words, the link between the soul and the body is this divine spark, which is supplied by God at our creation and constantly supplied throughout our lives.

I don’t mean to imply that we are God, but merely, God, at some point or at all points, gave us the divine spark.

Perhaps this is a satisfactory beginning. I’m looking foward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[Struggling]

We make a choice, and our body moves, not because God “allows it” or “makes it happen” but because we choose to.

No. God definitely has to “allow it” exactly because sometimes he DOESN’T.

Sometimes I might choose to hit someone, but trip and fall instead (an arrangement of Providence)

Sometimes I choose to go commit adultery, but have a heart attack and can’t (an arrangement of Providence)

It seems my body only follows my Will inasmuch as God in His Providence thinks it is best for that to happen.

Sometimes I spiritually Will an act (commiting a sin) and I follow through in the material world. Other times I Will an act, but am stopped from following through (I have a seizure suddenly). It seems sometimes God thinks allowing the body to actually follow through the already-willed act is for the best, but other times doesn’t. Most times the fire burns the cotton, but sometimes, rarely, it doesnt. Is God’s will the direct Causal link? Otherwise, what is necessity and causation?

 

[Jeanette_L]

No. God definitely has to “allow it” exactly because sometimes he DOESN’T.

Sometimes I might choose to hit someone, but trip and fall instead (an arrangement of Providence)

Sometimes I choose to go commit adultery, but have a heart attack and can’t (an arrangement of Providence)

It seems my body only follows my Will inasmuch as God in His Providence thinks it is best for that to happen.

Sometimes I spiritually Will an act (commiting a sin) and I follow through in the material world. Other times I Will an act, but am stopped from following through (I have a seizure suddenly). It seems sometimes God thinks allowing the body to actually follow through the already-willed act is for the best, but other times doesn’t. Most times the fire burns the cotton, but sometimes, rarely, it doesnt. Is God’s will the direct Causal link? Otherwise, what is necessity and causation?

Boy, this sounds like the question of the ages! How much does God “allow” and how much does He “intervene” and why? I don’t know that we will ever know the answers to this in our lifetime.

I’ve often wondered these things myself, in my own experience. I know that God has allowed me to go my own way at times, and I and those around me must deal with the consequences of my choices. There are other times when I know that He has intervened and prevented me from making huge mistakes. Why does He step in and save me and others from myself only on occasion?

My only reasonable answer to this so far is possibly prayer. It may be very possible that someone’s prayer has affected the outcome in certain circumstances. It makes sense when we are told how important prayer is in the life of believers, and unless we can see that they actually do make a difference, why is it necessary? Intercession is probably the key.

Does this make sense? I know I didn’t use philosophical language, but it is just a way I have come to make some sense out of what has always puzzled me in my faith journey.

 

[Zahmir]

No. God definitely has to “allow it” exactly because sometimes he DOESN’T.

Sometimes I might choose to hit someone, but trip and fall instead (an arrangement of Providence)

Sometimes I choose to go commit adultery, but have a heart attack and can’t (an arrangement of Providence)

It seems my body only follows my Will inasmuch as God in His Providence thinks it is best for that to happen.

Sometimes I spiritually Will an act (commiting a sin) and I follow through in the material world. Other times I Will an act, but am stopped from following through (I have a seizure suddenly). It seems sometimes God thinks allowing the body to actually follow through the already-willed act is for the best, but other times doesn’t. Most times the fire burns the cotton, but sometimes, rarely, it doesnt. Is God’s will the direct Causal link? Otherwise, what is necessity and causation?

I would challenge your idea of direct Providence. It seems to me that your idea is that every good coincidence is a result of Providence while every bad coincidence is the result of chance.

For it’s just as often that I could be driving a bus full of kids, I could have a seizure and have an accident, killing them all. I could be on the verge of discovering a cure for AIDS, but then have a stroke.

Is this God’s Providence? I don’t think so. Unless of course you think that killing the kids somehow prevented a greater evil later in time. However, this idea is absoultely ridiculous as God would never intentionally kill his people.

I agree with you, sometimes things happen, and I hardly believe in “good coincidences.” I more often believe in blessings. For example, the joy I receive from living according to His Will is a blessing. Having met my girlfriend when I did is a blessing. This is probably something you would call Providence.

However, I feel there is a stark difference from having met my girlfriend when I did, and hypothetically having a heart attack before I strangle someone. Otherwise, free will is infringed upon and we are no longer separate beings but puppets for God to act upon.

Yes, sometimes bad things happen to bad people, making for a good outcome, but I don’t think this is the result of God. To say so would be to imply something about God’s love for the sinner or how much we are truly free to act.

 

[Struggling]

Is this God’s Providence? I don’t think so. Unless of course you think that killing the kids somehow prevented a greater evil later in time. However, this idea is absoultely ridiculous as God would never intentionally kill his people.

Yes. It is God’s Providence. EVERYTHING is. The Catholic Encyclopedia says on “Divine Providence”…

He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention, of God, and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

And God kills every one of us, remember. In the end, he arranges the moment of each of our deaths, and then takes the soul. I have no problem with that, it’s his job.

 

[Zahmir]

God would not WILL an evil. His Providence is that good can come from evil and through evil.

God would NEVER will that a bus full of kids should die, but rather, that good can come from their deaths.

To say otherwise would be a horrific perversion.

God does not kill us!!!

We die because we have sinned. This is our fault, but nevertheless, God’s divine providence gave us the oppurtunity to live eternally with him.

 

[Struggling]

That is because you are viewing material or “natural” evil as truly “evil”.

But they’re not. Death, destruction, etc…are not “evil” in the moral sense of the word. God would never will Sin, which is the only true evil, that is our choice. But other things that happen are his to will.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

Evil is threefold, viz., “malum naturæ” (metaphysical evil), “culpæ” (moral), and “paenæ” (physical, the retributive consequence of “malum culpæ”) (I, Q. xlviii, a. 5, 6; Q. lxiii, a. 9; De Malo, I, 4). Its existence subserves the perfection of the whole; the universe would be less perfect if it contained no evil. Thus fire could not exist without the corruption of what it consumes; the lion must slay the *** in order to live, and if there were no wrong doing, there would be no sphere for patience and justice (I, Q. xlviii, a. 2). God is said (as in Isaiah 45) to be the author of evil in the sense that the corruption of material objects in nature is ordained by Him, as a means for carrying out the design of the universe; and on the other hand, the evil which exists as a consequence of the breach of Divine laws is in the same sense due to Divine appointment; the universe would be less perfect if its laws could be broken with impunity. Thus evil, in one aspect, i.e. as counter-balancing the deordination of sin, has the nature of good (II, Q. ii, a. 19). But the evil of sin (culpæ), though permitted by God, is in no sense due to him (I, Q. xlix, a. 2).; its cause is the abuse of free will by angels and men (I-II, Q. lxxiii, a. 6; II-II, Q. x, a. 2; I-II, Q. ix, a. 3). It should be observed that the universal perfection to which evil in some form is necessary, is the perfection of this universe, not of any universe: metaphysical evil, that is to say, and indirectly, moral evil as well, is included in the design of the universe which is partially known to us; but we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.

God merely passively permits true evil (sin)…but he does indeed ordain and will those things which humans call evil (physical evil; disasters, death, etc) because these are not against His Will (the definition of evil) but are very clearly in accordance with His Will or else they wouldn’t have happened (unlike sin, inanimate nature has no free will we could blame the opposition on)