Odd (semi-hypothetical question): pick-a-baptism?

[NHInsider]

Here’s an odd discussion that came up around the dinner table this week -

My daughter’s fiance is unbaptised. His mother is very anti-church (all churches, not just Catholic).

He has been attending Mass with her for several years and is considering becoming a Catholic but is also contemplating other Christian churches (primarily, I fear, because of the intimidating prospect of two years of weekly RCIA. . . .)

A couple of months ago his nephew was baptised in a local Methodist church which I presume must be the baby’s mother’s family’s church, although as far as my future s-i-l knows neither his brother nor the babymama attend, nor is there any likelihood that the child will be raised in that faith or any faith. At the time this occasioned some conversation about “social baptism” vs. the commitment we in the Catholic Church expect (at least in theory) from those who bring a child for baptism.

But - here’s the dinnertable conversation - what if my f-s-i-l were to present himself to said Methodist church to be baptized? Presuming that they would permit it, he would then, in theory, be able to marry my daughter in a Catholic wedding, and avoid the whole Dispensation from Disparity of Cult paperwork.

From an evangelization perspective it’s more than a little awkward - on the one hand I’m telling people that any proper Christian baptism is valid. On the other hand, this would clearly be an end-run which would be undercutting the solemnity of the sacrament and the importance of preparation. Seems a sticky wicket, so I thought I’d sound out the wisdom here . . . .

(This is pretty much just hypothetical because they would still require a dispensation from Canonical Form to marry out-of-doors, which is unlikely because our diocese does not give them - but they don’t want to create the scene they anticipate if they ask his mother to attend Mass. It may actually be simpler to get dispensation from disparity of cult so it’s a non-catholic wedding, which I think would not require the canonical form dispensation?

In the household discussion this is made even more complicated because a few years ago we insisted that our eldest daughter be married in a Mass, with similar family circumstances for the groom except that he had been baptised as an infant in some Protestant church so it was canonically possible.)

 

[Corki]

The couple would need a dispensation either way unless the fiancee became Catholic before the wedding.

I don’t know your diocese but a dispensation for cannonical form is not usually granted in order to marry outdoors. There could be one to be married in the Church of the fiancee but if he is a new convert, I don’t see how he is going to be able to demonstrate that his tie to that church is so strong that he must marry there. There has to be a really good reason given to the Bishop for the dispensation.

Marriage in the Church but without the Mass is probably the most honest way to go.

 

[kage_ar]

Pray that your daughter marries a man of Faith, someone who lives his Catholic Faith to the fullest.

She is looking at a lifetime of heartache to marry out side of her Faith.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Here’s an odd discussion that came up around the dinner table this week -

My daughter’s fiance is unbaptised. His mother is very anti-church (all churches, not just Catholic).

He has been attending Mass with her for several years and is considering becoming a Catholic but is also contemplating other Christian churches (primarily, I fear, because of the intimidating prospect of two years of weekly RCIA. . . .)

A couple of months ago his nephew was baptised in a local Methodist church which I presume must be the baby’s mother’s family’s church, although as far as my future s-i-l knows neither his brother nor the babymama attend, nor is there any likelihood that the child will be raised in that faith or any faith. At the time this occasioned some conversation about “social baptism” vs. the commitment we in the Catholic Church expect (at least in theory) from those who bring a child for baptism.

But - here’s the dinnertable conversation - what if my f-s-i-l were to present himself to said Methodist church to be baptized? Presuming that they would permit it, he would then, in theory, be able to marry my daughter in a Catholic wedding, and avoid the whole Dispensation from Disparity of Cult paperwork.

From an evangelization perspective it’s more than a little awkward - on the one hand I’m telling people that any proper Christian baptism is valid. On the other hand, this would clearly be an end-run which would be undercutting the solemnity of the sacrament and the importance of preparation. Seems a sticky wicket, so I thought I’d sound out the wisdom here . . . .

(This is pretty much just hypothetical because they would still require a dispensation from Canonical Form to marry out-of-doors, which is unlikely because our diocese does not give them - but they don’t want to create the scene they anticipate if they ask his mother to attend Mass. It may actually be simpler to get dispensation from disparity of cult so it’s a non-catholic wedding, which I think would not require the canonical form dispensation?

In the household discussion this is made even more complicated because a few years ago we insisted that our eldest daughter be married in a Mass, with similar family circumstances for the groom except that he had been baptised as an infant in some Protestant church so it was canonically possible.)

I would guess that the Methodist Community would look into the reason why he is seeking Baptism and if he intends to join their Community. They may welcome Infants withour question, however I suspect some look closer at adults reasons for doing so. I am aware of some Methodists that have studied the RCIA process and incorporated it ito their Community for receiving un-Baptized Adults.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The couple would need a dispensation either way unless the fiancee became Catholic before the wedding.

I don’t know your diocese but a dispensation for cannonical form is not usually granted in order to marry outdoors. There could be one to be married in the Church of the fiancee but if he is a new convert, I don’t see how he is going to be able to demonstrate that his tie to that church is so strong that he must marry there. There has to be a really good reason given to the Bishop for the dispensation.

Marriage in the Church but without the Mass is probably the most honest way to go.

A Dispensation is only required when seeking to Marry a person who is not Baptized.

 

[Corki]

A Dispensation is only required when seeking to Marry a person who is not Baptized.

Sorry, my terminology may be wrong. Permission from the Bishop is required for any mixed marriage, even if the other party is a Baptized non-Catholic.

Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Sorry, my terminology may be wrong. Permission from the Bishop is required for any mixed marriage, even if the other party is a Baptized non-Catholic.

Canon Law automatically invalidates a Marriage between a Catholic and an non-Baptized person. Unless the Bishop of the Catholic party Dispenses (issues a Dispensation) them from the Law.

A Catholic seking to Marry a validly Baptized Christian only requires the Bishops permission for licitness.

 

[NHInsider]

Right, it’s two different dispensations, Disparity of Cult and Canonical Form. The outdoor marriage thing is at the discretion of the bishop and it’s my understanding that some are more okay with it than others. My eldest was married in Vermont and they flatly state they will not issue any dispensation for marrying outdoors. NH doesn’t mention it on their website but we’ve been told by several people that they asked and were told it couldn’t be done.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Right, it’s two different dispensations, Disparity of Cult and Canonical Form. The outdoor marriage thing is at the discretion of the bishop and it’s my understanding that some are more okay with it than others. My eldest was married in Vermont and they flatly state they will not issue any dispensation for marrying outdoors. NH doesn’t mention it on their website but we’ve been told by several people that they asked and were told it couldn’t be done.

I understand that nearly all of the Bishops will not permit outdoor weddings.

 

[Corki]

Canon Law automatically invalidates a Marriage between a Catholic and an non-Baptized person. Unless the Bishop of the Catholic party Dispenses (issues a Dispensation) them from the Law.

A Catholic seking to Marry a validly Baptized Christian only requires the Bishops permission for licitness.

I’m not trying to be difficult - just trying to improve my understand of terminology…

Doesn’t this mean that both are dispensations? It sounds like without a dispensation for the disparity of cult, a marriage would be invalid but without the dispensation for canonical form, the marriage would be performed illicitly. In the latter case, it would be the priest who officiated that would be in violation, wouldn’t it?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m not trying to be difficult - just trying to improve my understand of terminology…

Doesn’t this mean that both are dispensations? It sounds like without a dispensation for the disparity of cult, a marriage would be invalid but without the dispensation for canonical form, the marriage would be performed illicitly. In the latter case, it would be the priest who officiated that would be in violation, wouldn’t it?

In the first case a new Marriage would need to be celebrated with a new exchange of vows.

In the second casse the Marriage could be recognized by the Church as soon as the permission is granted, no new exchange of vows would be necessary.