Off The Rails: Was Vatican II Hijacked?

[katherine2]

Jakub:

I do enjoy to see Novus Ordo people use Latin in their quotes etc.

Just goes to show that we havn’t “abandoned” Latin as some claim!!

If one wanted to revise the Roman Liturgy, one would just translate the Latin accurately into the vernacular and it is complete

Basicly what was done. The changes were minimal. The Kyrie, Gloira, Creed, Sanctus, Angus Dei all remain.

One would not destroy its structure and tradition with “Liturgical Experts” outside the Church.

The separated brethern identfied in many documents are not the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics but Protestants.

In the documents on ecumenism. We are talking about liturgy.

 

[katherine2]

TNT:

Help me stumble thru this:

ok

1. Athanasius said Mass in Greek. Latin was the language of the empire. So, do we need to have the Mass in Athanasius language…Greek?

Greek was the language of the faithful of Alexandria. he said the Liturgy in the people’s language.

1. I love ANTIQUARIANISM too. I hated to see it condemned by PP XII.

Whatever. The points is not that we should adopt holy practices that were formerly used. The point is that these practices are not by their nature unholy or heretical or irrevernet.

1. P Paul VI fulfilled his objectives well on the new Mass. Unfortunately, it was not antiquarianism that he sought as you suppose: But you refuse to acknowledge that when I showed you the interview with the ABBOTT involved. Why is that?
   Even I acknowledge when the proof is presented. Why do you ignore it? I really wonder.

I don’t know what you are talking about.

Do you not care about your own credibility? You asked for proof that P Paul’s objective was to bring the NOM into agreement with protestants, and I showed you from the closest of sources available. Yet you acknowledge nothing presented nor offer any refutation.

The fact that Orthodox and Protestant observers were present at the Council? That’s proof?

 

[PreVatII]

For an excellent look at the past forty years since the end of the Second Vatican Council, read “The Great Facade: Vatican II and the Regime of Novelty in the Roman Catholic Church” by Christopher A. Ferrara and Dr. Thomas E. Woods, Jr.

If, as our Holy Father says, that we are in the “Springtime of the Church,” then God help us when the “Winter” sets in!

 

[terrcatholic]

Pre Vatican II, you are so right, and some may get the message, but the lazy laity are used to thinking that they can sin sin and sin and never hear about it because all they are taught is Love Love Love and they have had the run of the land for the past 40 years, time for Orthodoxy to return and throw out Vatican II and all it stood for hopefully within our lifetimes

A quote from the new Bishop of Phoenix:

In a talk to Catholic educators, the bishop put it this way:

“For the first 30 years after the Second Vatican Council, confusion and dissent were widespread in the church. During those years, there occurred a dramatic decrease in vocations, a horrific rise in sexual abuse by members of the clergy, and a sharp decline in the number of Catholic schools. The fruits of dissent are all too evident.”

Goraieb said that the bishop will be challenged to change the culture of the diocese and that it will take far longer than a year.

“It will take five to eight years to establish the parameters for a Catholic culture to flourish, to acquire the unity of heart we are missing today,” he said.
ere occurred a dramatic decrease in vocations, a horrific rise in sexual abuse by members of the clergy, and a sharp decline in the number of Catholic schools. The fruits of dissent are all too evident."

Goraieb said that the bishop will be challenged to change the culture of the diocese and that it will take far longer than a year.

“It will take five to eight years to establish the parameters for a Catholic culture to flourish, to acquire the unity of heart we are missing today,” he said.
QUOTE=PreVatII]For an excellent look at the past forty years since the end of the Second Vatican Council, read “The Great Facade: Vatican II and the Regime of Novelty in the Roman Catholic Church” by Christopher A. Ferrara and Dr. Thomas E. Woods, Jr.

If, as our Holy Father says, that we are in the “Springtime of the Church,” then God help us when the “Winter” sets in!

 

[terrcatholic]

Understood Oat, then we need to get a Pope in place who will make CLEAR what is acceptable and what is not, they left it vague on purpose as they were hoping to push through all of these liberal ideas without the conservatives realizing, and they sure did a great job of deceipt. Now we must stand up and protest, like the liberals do everytime something does not go their way and they always throw “the spirit of vatican II” at you, which the spirit was to liberalize the church and it has backfired badly.
oat soda:

I sympathize with you trust me. it is hard not to associate VII and all of the destruction in its aftermath. But when you read the documents, you realize that they are subject to interpretation like anything else. SC can be vague and ambiguous which created disaster when it was put in the wrong hands.

Keep in mind that the devil has been given more liberty by God. Pope Leo XIII and even St. John Bosco foresaw the looming onslaught of the devil. who can say he isn’t running the world right now, especially during the 20th century? it even says in the bible that all of the principalities were given to him and that he was cast down to earth and isn’t locked up in hell yet. the devil is certainly at work in the church today at all levels. fr. Corapi pointed out that the present homo scandal in the priesthood could of only come out of the bowls of hell.

this attack goes way back to the reformation and the 17th century. look at how France, a catholic country, persecuted the catholic church during the French revolution. in the 50’s, the church was in better shape but i think there were some serious cracks in society then. things were overly materialistic and catholics wanted to blend in with american culture. i remember seeing some art work from the late 40s which was pornographic. so this underlying attack by masonic/satanic forces has always been at work in our society trying to undermine and destroy the catholic church, which they pretty much did.

and notice how subtle satan was during his attack. first it starts with contraception, then it’s abortion, now it’s gay marriage. in the church it started with communion in hand, abolishment of latin and traditional devotions, universal abuse of lay eucharistic ministers,… etc. satan doesn’t want you to know he’s there. he’s been slowly raising our threshold for detecting him so that now we are deaf to his works. his attack is centered on the eucharist and that’s why he’s been at work on the priesthood. look at how vocations are down to near nothing in large catholic cities.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Buffalo,

“Hijacked” is a term used by those who would not have the Church adapt to the times. The abuses that followed the Council were due to misinterpretations of the Council

Ultimately, who cares about the politicking that might have happened during the Council. Its deliberations were done by human beings but they were guided by the Holy Spirit, .

What is really important is that all the documents of the Council were published under the authority of the Pope; You can find them by by clicking here.

Finally, our Holy Father, John Paul II is guided by Vatican II and quotes it abundantly in his speeches and writings. He is the guide God has given us, and we should follow him.

Verbum

 

[oat_soda]

we need to get a Pope in place who will make CLEAR what is acceptable and what is not, they left it vague on purpose as they were hoping to push through all of these liberal ideas without the conservatives realizing, and they sure did a great job of deceipt

i think this is why the pope and cardinal ratzinger have published the catechism back in 94. he held a synod of bishops or something to that effect in the 80s to address this problem of the faith not getting transmitted and twisted by “hijackers”.

i’ve heard from people who work with the pope say that he doesn’t resort to excommunication unless absolutely necessary and wants the truth to speak for itself. he has a very passive way of handling dissent and he wants the person to come around on their own terms. cardinal ratzinger even said he was an “optimist” whereas he said he wasn’t so optimistic about the state of the church. basically, the pope’s is saying “you are important, you’re created in the image of God, so act like it”. i guess in the pre-Consicillar church was more about telling people not to do something because it was wrong and a sin. the pope’s way is much more positive. he’s telling us that we do have freedom and that it is expressed perfectly when we freely choose God’s will not out of fear or coercion, but because we want to.

i think this is what JPII’s pontificate is trying to convey, the dignity of everyone as made in the image of God. the reason the church has been so susceptible to satan’s attack at least points to a weakness in faith that was inherent in the church well before the council.

here is a good article about the positives and negatives of JPII’s legacy catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0310fea2.asp

the pope i think has been too lax and i think he hasn’t done enough to fix the liturgy. he’s more of a theologan then a manager. either way, i have the deepest respect and love for him.

 

[TNT]

katherine2:

ok
I don’t know what you are talking about. …

The fact that Orthodox and Protestant observers were present at the Council? That’s proof?

I’ll assume your sincerity, for now.
Try refreshing your mind on these posts of Jan 3-4:

[forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=381372#post381372](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=381372#post381372)

[forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=382870#post382870](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=382870#post382870)

And these reference sites which I also posted:
catholic.net/RCC/Periodi…5-96/abbot.html

dotm.org/altar-may14.htm

 

[terrcatholic]

First off, Cardinal Ratzinger may come across to you and most as a “conservative” compared to the ultra-liberals running around the Vatican, but he was one of the Architects of V2, and he himself admits it was hijacked.

And as far as ex-communication or censure, the only people who get censured of excommunicated are those who cry in pain as they see all of the TRADITIONS of the church being thrown away down the drain. If you are a homosexual, a priest preaching for homosexual rights, a pro-abortionist as Mr Kerry and probably the person to the left and right of you at your Novus Ordo Mass, Nah, that is all OK, they will Never be excommunicated, let along denied communion like Kerry , Cuomo and all the pro-abortion Democrats who are Catholic and for Photo-op go to church and receive our Lord.
oat soda:

i think this is why the pope and cardinal ratzinger have published the catechism back in 94. he held a synod of bishops or something to that effect in the 80s to address this problem of the faith not getting transmitted and twisted by “hijackers”.

i’ve heard from people who work with the pope say that he doesn’t resort to excommunication unless absolutely necessary and wants the truth to speak for itself. he has a very passive way of handling dissent and he wants the person to come around on their own terms. cardinal ratzinger even said he was an “optimist” whereas he said he wasn’t so optimistic about the state of the church. basically, the pope’s is saying “you are important, you’re created in the image of God, so act like it”. i guess in the pre-Consicillar church was more about telling people not to do something because it was wrong and a sin. the pope’s way is much more positive. he’s telling us that we do have freedom and that it is expressed perfectly when we freely choose God’s will not out of fear or coercion, but because we want to.

i think this is what JPII’s pontificate is trying to convey, the dignity of everyone as made in the image of God. the reason the church has been so susceptible to satan’s attack at least points to a weakness in faith that was inherent in the church well before the council.

here is a good article about the positives and negatives of JPII’s legacy catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0310fea2.asp

the pope i think has been too lax and i think he hasn’t done enough to fix the liturgy. he’s more of a theologan then a manager. either way, i have the deepest respect and love for him.

 

[Therese_Martin]

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