Ok is prayer worship?!

Anonymous_1 · Oct 31, 2004

When i pray to the Lord, i try my best to come as i am, humbly, and lift my heart up to Him, with thanks and rpaise, request and petitions
If you are praying to saints who have passed or Mary, how is it not worship?

I dont understand why people pray to Mary or Saints either, if you want someone to pray for you, ask your Brothers in Sisters here on earth.

Besides there is only one God and one mediator between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ…
Jesus pleases God the Father… Why should we need to make our requests through Mary or anyone else for that matter?

WBB · Oct 31, 2004

Like I said in the other post, you need to study your faith to understand it better. If I ask you to pray for me (which, by the way, would you?

), I am not worshiping you. This is the same principle with prayer and the communion of saints.

Anonymous_1 · Oct 31, 2004

whats your name and how can i lift you up?

WBB · Oct 31, 2004

Anonymous_1:

whats your name and how can i lift you up?

Brian, and anyway you see fit!

Hesychios · Oct 31, 2004

Please pray for me too!

I need it bad.

mayra_hart · Oct 31, 2004

God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out ofHis eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators. :blessyou:

DominvsVobiscvm · Oct 31, 2004

Yes, prayer is a form of worship.

Yes, Catholics worship Mary and the Saints. They also worship parents, civil authorities, and others whome they respect.

To worship simply means to honor. Nowadays, the word has other connotations, namely that it pertains only to God. But up until not too long ago it would not have been at all unusual for Catholics to admit they worshipped Mary.

There are actually different types of worship. The worship that we give God id called latria, or adoration. The worship given to lesser personages is called dulia.

asteroid · Nov 1, 2004

To see an interesting use of the word worship, look at the parable in Luke 14:7-11. The words below are from the King James Version. They clearly show that you should take the lower seats at weddings so that the feast organiser can call you higher so that you can be worshipped.

Clearly the word ‘worship’ here means something other than we would expect it to mean - and there isn’t (that I’ve found) a protestant commentator who would claim that the worship here is the same as the worship due only to God. All of them agree that to be ‘worshipped’ here is to be honoured.

In this old fashioned sense of the word worship men can be worshipped (honoured) but not worshipped as we worship God. In this old fashioned sense of the word Mary and the Saints too can be worshipped (honoured).

And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Luk 14:8 When thou art bidden of any [man] to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
Luk 14:9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
Luk 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
Luk 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

tkdnick · Nov 1, 2004

Anonymous_1:

When i pray to the Lord, i try my best to come as i am, humbly, and lift my heart up to Him, with thanks and rpaise, request and petitions
If you are praying to saints who have passed or Mary, how is it not worship?

I dont understand why people pray to Mary or Saints either, if you want someone to pray for you, ask your Brothers in Sisters here on earth.

Besides there is only one God and one mediator between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ…
Jesus pleases God the Father… Why should we need to make our requests through Mary or anyone else for that matter?

I think part of it depends on your definition of prayer. See in original English, to pray is simply to request. Like “I pray thee sir please do not harm me.” It is in that type of sense that we “pray” to the saints. “Mary please pray for me.” It’s really no different than all of these posters asking you to pray for them. We are simply asking others to pray for us. People who happened to be holy and righteous, and who we believe are in Heaven.

PaulDupre · Nov 1, 2004

DominvsVobiscvm:

Yes, prayer is a form of worship.

Yes, Catholics worship Mary and the Saints. They also worship parents, civil authorities, and others whome they respect.

To worship simply means to honor. Nowadays, the word has other connotations, namely that it pertains only to God. But up until not too long ago it would not have been at all unusual for Catholics to admit they worshipped Mary.

There are actually different types of worship. The worship that we give God id called latria, or adoration. The worship given to lesser personages is called dulia.

When my family was on holiday in England many years ago, we attended a trial hearing in the English Court called the QB (Queen’s Bench). I was amused to hear the old language used by the barristers and the the judge in their powdered wigs. The barrister would say “My Lord, I pray that you would consider this motion in light of…”.

Now obviously this barrister didn’t think that the judge was God and he was not worshipping him. It illustrates that we modern Americans have a very narrow view of language and culture. To “PRAY” means to ask, not to worship. When a Catholic “prays” to a saint and asks that saint to pray for him, he is “asking the saint to ask for him”, or more correctly “asking the saint to join him in asking”.

Modern evangelicals in America and other Johnny-come-lately’s seem to demand that we all use their abridged dictionary to define what terms mean. This doesn’t happen in other parts of the world where cultures aren’t so isolated.
Paul

steve_b · Nov 1, 2004

Anonymous_1:

When i pray to the Lord, i try my best to come as i am, humbly, and lift my heart up to Him, with thanks and rpaise, request and petitions
If you are praying to saints who have passed or Mary, how is it not worship?

Here is Websters definition of pray

Main Entry: pray [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascript

opWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?pray0001.wav=pray’))
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French *preier, *from Latin *precari, *from *prec-, prex *request, prayer; akin to Old High German *frAgEn *to ask, Sanskrit *prcchati *he asks
transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Anonymous_1:

http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif

I dont understand why people pray to Mary or Saints either,

Because Catholics don’t limit who we ask for prayer. We get everybody involved, even our Mother, and brothers and sisters, in heaven!!!

Anonymous_1:

if you want someone to pray for you, ask your Brothers in Sisters here on earth.

Catholics have older brothers and sisters in heaven also. We don’t limit thinking of our brothers and sisters, to only those here on earth.

Anonymous_1:

Besides there is only one God and one mediator between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ…

So then asking someone else to pray for you is wrong? Face it, that’s the point you’re making.

Next time someone asks you to pray for them, tell them no. Say to them, I won’t pray for you, you can go to God yourself. Tell them, haven’t you heard, there is only one mediator between God and man and it ain’t me? So pray for yourself !!!

Now tell me, is that scriptural? Nope!

Anonymous_1:

Jesus pleases God the Father… Why should we need to make our requests through Mary or anyone else for that matter?

Just as an aside, Jesus came to the world through Mary. That’s fact. He didn’t come to us directly. Did Mary need to give her consent? :yup: Going through one to get to others, makes the one you go through, a mediator by definition. Or in Mary’s case mediatrix. Therefore, since Jesus is God, and God came to us through Mary, by us going through Mary, we are only imitating Christ

fruitloops_10 · Nov 5, 2004

Hesychios:

Please pray for me too!

I need it bad.

I’ll pray for you too!

Katholikos · Nov 5, 2004

All Christians claim they believe that what we call “death” is the doorway to eternal life in Christ.

Then why do they believe that those faithful who have gone before us such Mary and the Saints are “dead”?

Prayer is not worship. That’s an example of Protestants “twisting” or “distorting” the scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15).

JMJ Jay

MariaG · Nov 5, 2004

Hi Steve,
You know, I have read the explanation of mediatrix many times, but have always been slightly uncomfortable with it. But although I do not think I will use the word with impunity, I can finally say I am “comfortable” with it. Thanks for the simple explanation.

I added some italics and bold that made it “work” for me.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Just as an aside, Jesus came to the world through Mary. That’s fact. He didn’t come to us directly. Did Mary need to give her consent? http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yup.gif Going through one to get to others, makes the one you go through, a mediator by definition. Or in Mary’s case mediatrix. Therefore, since Jesus is God, and God came to us through Mary, by us going through Mary, we are only imitating Christ http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Anonymous_1 · Nov 7, 2004

Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. I am not refuting this fact. If i dont pray to Mary or the Saints, is that wrong?

And to the person who said i was implying that we shouldnt pray for each other misunderstood what i was saying.
Not only do i think it isnt wrong, i think it is our duty to lift each other up to the Lord in prayer.

But Im not so sure praying to someone we believve is in Heaven is a good idea. I dont know of any scripture where this is taught. Im just going to take a look at one prayer.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

I dont understand…At all…
the way im looking at it is…Mary was a woman…being the fact that she was chosen to be the Mother of Christ certainly makes her blessed. But i dont know that we are supposed to be praying to her liket his.

I dont understand why you would want to anyway…

If someone could e mail me liqwidstyx@yahoo.com

Ok is prayer worship?!

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