"Old Catholic Church" Orders

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In the June 17, 2004 issue of The Wanderer, a question was asked in the Catholic Replies column about the “Old Catholic Church.” James Drummey, the columnist, responded that, " ‘Old Catholics’ refers to several sects, including the Church of Utrecht, which broke from Rome in 1724, and the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) in the United States, which came into existence about a century ago. They have a valid priesthood…"

My question is: Since these sects broke with Rome so long ago, how can they still have valid orders? Since Rome presumably did not give them permission to consecrate new bishops, wouldn’t any bishops consecrated after the break lack the ability to ordain more priests and consecrate additional bishops? It would seem that after the priests and bishops who were living at the time of the schism died, the priests and bishops following them would lack validity.

Anyone know the answer?
 
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weedhook:
In the June 17, 2004 issue of The Wanderer, a question was asked in the Catholic Replies column about the “Old Catholic Church.” James Drummey, the columnist, responded that, " ‘Old Catholics’ refers to several sects, including the Church of Utrecht, which broke from Rome in 1724, and the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) in the United States, which came into existence about a century ago. They have a valid priesthood…"

My question is: Since these sects broke with Rome so long ago, how can they still have valid orders? Since Rome presumably did not give them permission to consecrate new bishops, wouldn’t any bishops consecrated after the break lack the ability to ordain more priests and consecrate additional bishops? It would seem that after the priests and bishops who were living at the time of the schism died, the priests and bishops following them would lack validity.

Anyone know the answer?
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Well I will defer to someone more knowledgeable than I…but I think this is how it goes.

They can have valid but illicit orders. Like the Anglicans and I think even the Orthodox (and there’s more than these two also)…because of apostolic succession.

SV
 
Most of the Old Catholic churches have valid orders. A few churches descended from the original Old Catholics (who broke off from Rome in response to Vatican I’s definition of papal infallibility) veered so far off course as to abandon apostolic succession; some such groups may be considered New Age.

The Polish National Catholic Church did not arise from those original Old Catholic churches. It is an American offshoot of later vintage.
 
dear brother in Christ,

We have an Old Catholic priest participating on the Christian Forums right now (“Father Rick”), if you are interested in getting a perspective from the OCC.

Praying for humility,
-Davide
 
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weedhook:
Since these sects broke with Rome so long ago, how can they still have valid orders? Since Rome presumably did not give them permission to consecrate new bishops, wouldn’t any bishops consecrated after the break lack the ability to ordain more priests and consecrate additional bishops? It would seem that after the priests and bishops who were living at the time of the schism died, the priests and bishops following them would lack validity.
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Weed,

Veronica is essentially correct.

The Old Catholic Church which originated in Holland is generally referred to using the term “Utrecht Confession” or “Utrecht Communion.”

I disagree with Karl in his statement that most OC Churches have valid orders. The question is still open. A formal determination has been made by Rome only as to the validity of orders and sacraments of the Old Catholics of the Utrecht Confession. (I very recently heard an unconfirmed rumor that some entities within the Utrecht Union had lately performed some ordinations of females, but I haven’t been able to confirm that; if so, it will bring new question to the validity issue.)

There has been a historically curious relationship between the OCC-Utrecht and Rome for many decades. It’s said, with apparently some measure of truth, that Rome was always able to document claims of apostolic succession among the OCs of Uthrecht since, each time the OCs ordained or consecrated anyone, they would dutifully post notification to Rome, which in turn would issue and mail back fresh new documents of excommunication.

Old Catholics in the US are spiritual descendents of the Utrecht Confession, their orders, at least initially, having been obtained through Utrecht. In the century or so since that, however, there have been instances of intercommunion with other ‘High Churches’ that have included co-consecrations, causing their orders and succession to come into question. However, Rome has made no formal blanket determination as to the validity of orders or apostolic succession as to any of the several Old Catholic Churches in the US and is unlikely to do so, unless and until a body of faithful or an OC jurisdiction were to seek to enter into communion with it. The validity of orders in individual instances of OC clergy who have entered communion with Rome have been decided on a case-by-case basis and there have been both positive and negative decisions made.

There are a multitude of Old Catholic Churches in the US, the original body having suffered many schisms over the years - all or most of which claim to be the legitimate successors to the canonical jurisdictions established by Bishops Matthews, Vilatte, Carfora, Gul, and Berghes, the progenitors of the Old Catholic movement in North America.

(continued)
 
To describe most Old Catholics in the US as presently “very liberal” is probably a reasonable construal - although, from a linguistic point of view, I abhor equating “liberal” with non-canonical or any other such term; liberal is not, even when teamed with the modifier “very”, a bad word

Until a few years back, traditionalism could be ascribed to many of the OC Churches, with married clergy, refusal to recognize papal infallibility, and a somewhat relaxed attitude toward divorce and artificial contraception being the most frequently cited points of dissension from the doctrinal and dogmatic schema of the Roman Catholic Church. Abortion was condemned, as were same sex marriage and gay lifestyles. Liturgies used a variety of texts, including Novus Ordo, Tridentine, Anglican, Sarum, and Byzantine forms.

Much of that is still true, but there has been increased tolerance of gay lifestyles and a few have become accepting of same sex unions - however, ordination of women is probably the most widespread change among these folks, having become almost commonplace at this point.

The Old Catholic Church of the United States (OCCUS) continues to be very traditional, with the exception of allowing a married clergy, and might possibly withstand an examination of its episcopal orders. (A recent post here by Bishop Andre Queen, one of OCCUS’ hierarchs, indicates that they have approached Rome, seeking a determination as to the validity of their sacraments, orders, and apostolic succession.)

The Evangelical Catholic Church, which has a curious dual origin, in Lutheranism and Old Catholicism, is likewise very traditional and Bishop Karl Barwin, their presiding hierarch, has some lines of apostolic succession that would likely withstand scrutiny.

Both of those and some few others (notably the Old Roman Catholic Church - English Rite) have resisted a tendency common among some of their brethren to garner multiple episcopal consecrations and, in turn, bestow such at the drop of a hat, in an often vain effort to assure that somewhere, sometime, validity will attend.

I recently checked to update myself on who was subscribing to what practices. The sheer number of OCCs (and “independent Catholic” churches in the US who claim OC origins) defies any quick and easy review of them, but I surfed a handful of their websites. The following is a small sampling of OC Churches which presently allow ordination of women:

Old Catholic Church in North America
The Evangelical Old Catholic Church in America
Old Roman Catholic Church in North America
Heartland Old Catholic Church
Celtic Catholic Church
Christian Catholic Church
Mariavite Catholic Church

(continued)
 
The Polish National Catholic Church (and the Lithuanian National Catholic Church, now pretty much subsumed into the PNCC, but still having some separate identity, here and there) has been determined by Rome to have valid orders and episcopal succession in this country. Although Karl is correct that the PNCC is not an Old Catholic Church, it looked to Utrecht for its episcopal validity and is, accordingly, usually classed with it.

Rome has made no determination as to the validity of orders or succession as they apply to the PNCC’s counterpart back in Poland, which was exported there from America. Validity of orders of the Polish National Catholic Church in North America, a schismatic entity from the PNCC, has not been determined, but is probably doubtful because their theology has gone a bit afield.

Many years,

Neil
 
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