Old latin liturgy?

[marlo]

hi there

anybody has a link or copy of the Old Latin liturgy, what i want is the liturgy before the time of St. Gregory the Great

thanks
marlo

 

[Genesis315]

From what I’ve read there’s not a whole lot of record. There’s a period of Roman liturgical history that is shrouded in the mists of time. From what I’ve read (Catholic Encyclopedia) the liturgy before and after that period was radically different (obviously not in substance though). I hope someone can dig something up!

 

[marlo]

i researched that most probably St. Gregory the Great was the first to add or change the liturgy and the peole of rome was so angry, they threatened to kill him.

From what I’ve read there’s not a whole lot of record. There’s a period of Roman liturgical history that is shrouded in the mists of time. From what I’ve read (Catholic Encyclopedia) the liturgy before and after that period was radically different (obviously not in substance though). I hope someone can dig something up!

 

[AJV]

The story is that St. Gregory added the latter part of the Hanc igitur to the Canon. That is found in the Liber Pontificalis. But the people rioting is a pious belief of the Middle Ages.

Other changes to the Mass include the Kyrie (which on weekdays was in the the form of Kyrie…Christe…Kyrie instead of a litany), singing Alleluia outside Easter, and the shifting of the Our Father from the Offertory after the Canon and before the fraction. Many scholars also theorise the shifting of other parts such as the Pax, and even the Memento of the Dead.

 

[AJV]

The story is that St. Gregory added the latter part of the Hanc igitur to the Canon. That is found in the Liber Pontificalis. But the people rioting is a pious belief of the Middle Ages. And he was by no means the first to change the Roman liturgy.

Other changes to the Mass include the Kyrie (which on weekdays was in the the form of Kyrie…Christe…Kyrie instead of a litany), singing Alleluia outside Easter, and the shifting of the Our Father from the Offertory after the Canon and before the fraction. Many scholars also theorise the shifting of other parts such as the Pax, and even the Memento of the Dead. (See here for the letter of St. Gregory)

Of that period there are no things that tell us what the liturgy was like except what is written in the letters, and what the Liber says. The three major (and large) books (should I say families for the latter two?) of liturgical texts are

The Leonine Sacramentary - it was supposed to date from the time of St. Leo the Great but now a lot of scholars say it is closer to the seventh century. It is a collection of prayers for Masses-somewhat more like a prayerbook-and it doesn’t have the Canon

The Gelasian Sacramentary: this is a hybrid Roman-Gallician liturgy. And it gives the Canon almost as it was until recently-there is variation for the saints and the Memento for the Dead is missing. The book does not go back to Pope Gelasius despite it’s name: one manuscript has Masses for the exaltation of the Holy Cross and the Canon and the Lord’s Prayer are in the position of St. Gregory. And elsewhere there is an exhortation given attributed to Pope St. Gregory.

The Gregorian Sacramentary: these are based on a manuscript sent by the Pope Hadrian to Charlemagne in which he says “As to the Sacramentary drawn up by our holy predecessor, the godly Pope Gregory, Paul the grammarian asked us on your behalf to send you a pure text,
according to the tradition of our holy Church, so we have sent one to your royal excellence by John a monk and Abbot of the city of Ravenna…”. In the older manuscripts there is a first part which is supposed to be the original work and then supplementary material in between there is a preface in which the writer mentions St. Gregory. In the later manuscripts the sections are not delineated.

The above is a gross oversimilification so if you’re interested in the analysis, you can read Bishop’s here

Some of the manuscripts you can find here (Veronese is the Leonine)

 

[marlo]

Hi AJV

I’m looking for sources that shows that the epiclesis is really before the consecration in the latin liturgy. maybe you have sources for old canon of the mass

thanks
marlo

The story is that St. Gregory added the latter part of the Hanc igitur to the Canon. That is found in the Liber Pontificalis. But the people rioting is a pious belief of the Middle Ages. And he was by no means the first to change the Roman liturgy.

Other changes to the Mass include the Kyrie (which on weekdays was in the the form of Kyrie…Christe…Kyrie instead of a litany), singing Alleluia outside Easter, and the shifting of the Our Father from the Offertory after the Canon and before the fraction. Many scholars also theorise the shifting of other parts such as the Pax, and even the Memento of the Dead. (See here for the letter of St. Gregory)

Of that period there are no things that tell us what the liturgy was like except what is written in the letters, and what the Liber says. The three major (and large) books (should I say families for the latter two?) of liturgical texts are

The Leonine Sacramentary - it was supposed to date from the time of St. Leo the Great but now a lot of scholars say it is closer to the seventh century. It is a collection of prayers for Masses-somewhat more like a prayerbook-and it doesn’t have the Canon

The Gelasian Sacramentary: this is a hybrid Roman-Gallician liturgy. And it gives the Canon almost as it was until recently-there is variation for the saints and the Memento for the Dead is missing. The book does not go back to Pope Gelasius despite it’s name: one manuscript has Masses for the exaltation of the Holy Cross and the Canon and the Lord’s Prayer are in the position of St. Gregory. And elsewhere there is an exhortation given attributed to Pope St. Gregory.

The Gregorian Sacramentary: these are based on a manuscript sent by the Pope Hadrian to Charlemagne in which he says “As to the Sacramentary drawn up by our holy predecessor, the godly Pope Gregory, Paul the grammarian asked us on your behalf to send you a pure text,
according to the tradition of our holy Church, so we have sent one to your royal excellence by John a monk and Abbot of the city of Ravenna…”. In the older manuscripts there is a first part which is supposed to be the original work and then supplementary material in between there is a preface in which the writer mentions St. Gregory. In the later manuscripts the sections are not delineated.

The above is a gross oversimilification so if you’re interested in the analysis, you can read Bishop’s here

Some of the manuscripts you can find here (Veronese is the Leonine)

 

[alih]

i believe if one would look at the way liturgy was used, one would see that there would exist a separation between “the liturgy” and “the mass.” the “mass” being the “sacrificial rite” of the roman catholic church.
i theorize, that the council of trent, codified the mass and threw out many local customs which found their way into the mass. again, my theory: but i suspect a guy named guetenberg (sp?) was largely responsible as he invented movable type and the need for monks laboring in the monestaries with quill and ink was drawing to a close.therefore, they were able to now print a standardization of “mass.” have a good year. (alih)

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

i believe if one would look at the way liturgy was used, one would see that there would exist a separation between “the liturgy” and “the mass.” the “mass” being the “sacrificial rite” of the roman catholic church.

Okay, so how do you explain the Eastern Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox?

alih:

i theorize, that the council of trent, codified the mass and threw out many local customs which found their way into the mass.

The Council of Trent allowed for the use of local Latin liturgies if they could be proved to have been in existence for more than 200 years.

alih:

again, my theory: but i suspect a guy named guetenberg (sp?) was largely responsible as he invented movable type and the need for monks laboring in the monestaries with quill and ink was drawing to a close.

alih:

therefore, they were able to now print a standardization of “mass.”

Gutenberg printed the Bible. He did not print the canon of mass.

alih:

have a good year. (alih)

You too.

 

[alih]

there are, i believe, 21 different rites in the catholic church, of which the roman rite is one.
guttenberg (sp?), at the time of trent, was probably a decedant.
the printing press (movable type) made possible the mass production by their standards, if you please, printed matter.
it then would represent the first time in church history, that this could have been accomplished.
all too often, today’s thinking is used instead of the thinking of the time.have a good year…(alih)