Old Testament horrors

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Hi all. I’m an up-n-coming new Catholic (technically a candidate, if I have my terminology straight). In years past, I had gigantic problems with the Bible. I’m happy to say that I’ve pretty much come to grips with the New Testament. I still have a couple of problems there, but nothing that disturbs me too much.

But the Old Testament is a point of bigger concern. There is some scary stuff in there. A lot of it is very hard to reconcile with the idea of a loving, just God.

I can dig up specific stories if it helps, but I imagine you have some idea of the type of things I’m talking about. Places where God either slaughters large groups of people, or orders their slaughter, or at least condones it. For that matter, the rather draconian laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus seem a little sticky. Kill your son if he worships a different god (Deut 13:9)?

Does this stuff bother anyone else? Any ideas for how I can deal with it?

Thanks!
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
But the Old Testament is a point of bigger concern. There is some scary stuff in there. A lot of it is very hard to reconcile with the idea of a loving, just God.

I can dig up specific stories if it helps, but I imagine you have some idea of the type of things I’m talking about. Places where God either slaughters large groups of people, or orders their slaughter, or at least condones it. For that matter, the rather draconian laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus seem a little sticky. Kill your son if he worships a different god (Deut 13:9)? Thanks!
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You see how things are in Iraq today. Well go back to those days in the early parts of the Old Testament and things were worse. Modern do gooders like to talk about the noble savage hunter/gatherer, but in actual fact very few men lived to old age because of constant wars between groups. Canaan in 2000 BC was not a peaceful place. If God was going to bring along a people to be a people who would at least to some extent be decent folk who could hear him and believe, he had to make them warlike for their survival and also monotheists who could be holy and able to understand the lessons his son would teach. Big sins like adultery and murder etc. were treated harshly to keep the people holy and pure as possible. As the story of Maccabees shows other strong peoples would have forced their paganism on the Jews. God wanted his chosen people to survive and be ready to play their role in Salvation History.

A similar lesson for us is taught by the spread of Islam from 700 AD onward. There came a time when Islam ruled far more of the known world than the Christians. It took almost 800 years to take Spain back from them. Until the end of WW I the Islamic Ottoman Empire held all of Asia Minor and the Middle East (most every thing between Austria and China and from Russia to Greece and parts of North Africa.) They fought on Germany’s side in WW I and lost most of it. A circumstance that still angers them.
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
Does this stuff bother anyone else? Any ideas for how I can deal with it?
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It’s good that it bothers you, you’re a moral person… Here’s some more for starters, these are less ‘warrior like’:

Genesis 19:7-8
Don’t rape my guests, rape my virgin daughters instead.

gen 19 31-6
Lot gets drunk and sleeps with his daughters, but it’s their fault.

Judges 19:23-4
Don’t rape my guest, take my servant, she’s a woman. Then in the morning, after being gang raped to death he chops her body up into little pieces.

Numbers 15
A man gathering sticks on a sunday is put to death.

These things are hard to deal with. Theologians make a living from thinking up explanations to deal with them.

The good news is there’s one simple answer that solves them all. God is imaginary and people used him to justify their own putrid deeds.
 
you might want to listen to scott hahn’s audio series
Our Fathers Plan

Especially program #3 will talk about the killing of women children and animals.
  1. Reading Through The Bible
  2. History Of Early World
  3. Patriarchs
  4. Israel In Egypt
  5. Conquest Of Canaan
  6. Judges
  7. United Kingdom
  8. Divided Kingdom
  9. The Exile
10.Gospels I

11.Gospels II

12.Acts I

13.Acts II
 
It took many centuries to prepare the followers of Christ to listen to His teachings.

The Beatitudes are a far cry from “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth”.

Humanity had to be gradually led into such a mindset; and, unfortunately, there are many Christians today who are not living the Beatitudes.
 
Gareth said:
It’s good that it bothers you, you’re a moral person…

[snip]

The good news is there’s one simple answer that solves them all. God is imaginary and people used him to justify their own putrid deeds.
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I’ve been where you are, and I’m glad I’m not there any more. I’ve had experiences that have led me to believe that God is real, and that he is in fact benevolent.

Most of the things on your list really can’t be attributed to God, though. Numbers 15 is the closest, since the Sabbath was a law from God. But the rest were misdeeds of people, nothing more. At best, you can use them to conclude that some of the people of the old testament did Very Bad Things.

The things that bother me more are the direct interventions or commands of God. Go over there and kill every living thing you see, for example. :eek: Or burning entire cities in fire and brimstone.
 
Look at it from a practical and historical standpoint as well. The Israelites were a tribal people and many of the laws, though very harsh by today’s standards, were very useful at the time. Tribal leaders (such as Abraham) had to have obedience as life was generally far too short and harsh to stop and hold roundtable discussions on where to take the flocks in the upcoming season. 😉

Other rules were necessary for keeping the population growing (a tribe could simply be absorbed by faster growing neighbours in those days). Also cleanliness was extremely important as medicine was not very advanced and the single most important thing one could do to stay healthy was to maintain as much good hygeine as possible (hence a lot of rules about menstrual cycles, sexual purity, eating habits). The Jewish people were a very clean people and much of that is owed to God’s laws.

As for brutality, I assume Jericho is a good example, it was an unfortunate reality of warfare in that time. Note that later the Jewish people did not follow such a strict course of warfare and extermination of non-believers. The Samaritans, for example were loathed by the Jews, but never massacred (as far as I know!).

I disagree completely with rwoehmke. For one, the Israelites were conquered often throughout their history and still maintained their monotheism, so the link between warrior-like people and maintenance of monotheism is not historically maintained.

Moreover, the simplicity of the paragraph concerning Islam leaves a great deal to be desired and is extremely misleading.
 
The Israelites were just growing in their faith, they needed strong examples to make sure they kept God’s law after the Exodus. They spent centuries in Egypt, it was hard for them as a people to break customs of Egypt. However, if you read closely, you can see that God is a merciful God.

Scott Hahn explains it very well in his book, ‘A Father Keeps His Promises’. A very good book on the subject. 👍
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
Most of the things on your list really can’t be attributed to God, though. Numbers 15 is the closest, since the Sabbath was a law from God. But the rest were misdeeds of people, nothing more. At best, you can use them to conclude that some of the people of the old testament did Very Bad Things.
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I agree. Even if God is not imaginary some parts of the bible represent people justifying their own deeds using him as ‘liscense to kill’ or treat others unjustly.

To me it seems obivous that parts of the bible paint an untrue picture of God.

Some of these people were supposedly commended by God and their actions were considered rightous by him.

I do think it proves it’s not a good book to look to for moral leadership, and that it’s not the great source of morality some people paint it to be. 🙂
 
Since we believe in eternal life, God ordering people to be killed is a no-brainer. It just means they get to their eternal reward sooner rather than later. Remember: Good people get rewarded when they die.

St Paul writes (I don’t know where) that he would like to go to God NOW but God has work for him to do here.

In the OT people who are to be killed by God’s command, have no more tasks set out for them by God to be done.

All people die. The important thing to remember is God is the one who gives life. God is the one who decides how long each person’s life should be (if we don’t interfere). So when you time to die is come, God will end your life. It could be an earthquake, heart attack, stroke, flood, or death by ancient Isralites taking your life!!

We think a short life is a tragedy, but the proper length of life, is that granted by God and the length of life is perfection if lived as God intended us to live.

As Job said: the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the Lord!
 
If it weren’t for the crusades in both the Middle East and in Italy, France, and Spain we would all be Muslims today. Sobieski stopped them cold at the walls of Vienna. Not all of today’s Muslims are to be condemned or even feared, but there are those among them who want to re-establish the Caliphate of the pre WW I world and are willing to die to do it. My wifes grandfather died fighting the Turks at Gallipoli, a battle the British lost and lost badly.
 
Anyone is certainly free to disagree but, David’s army was certainly successful. The Assyrians after conquering Israel placed a large number of the newly conquered Israelites as units into their armies because the Jews were skilled and powerful warriors. Over the years the warriors of the Jews were used as mercenaries by Egypt and more than one of the conquering nations. The Maccabees certainly whipped those generals who succeeded Alexander. Although Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, under Bar Kocba the Jews gave the Roman Legions a run for their money. Even today the Israelis are not the least at making and winning at war. It could be Vlaclav is correct, being a good warrior doesn’t have much to do with staying monotheistic unless perhaps wanting to be allowed to do so is the reason for fighting.

I have lived with Muslim room mates and worked with them on the job. Most of them are decent people, willing to live and let live so please don’t tag me as an extremist of some sort.
 
rwoehmke said:
being a good warrior doesn’t have much to do with staying monotheistic unless perhaps wanting to be allowed to do so is the reason for fighting.
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This is an interesting point. Many people now believe that this is the evolutionary function of religion. That since all people in existence have religions, they must have survival value of some sort.

There is certainly a fear of pain and death built into our bodies, and religion can be used as a way to inspire people to rise above this. Often for considerations of the greater good ie. of a group.
 
From Scott Hahn’s Covenant Love: Introducing the Biblical Worldview

b. Barbs and Thorns Remain

Despite Joshua’s victories, at the time of his death, Israel had conquered much - but not all - of the promised land (see Judges 1:27-36; 3:1-6).

This failure to secure the entire land will become a decisive factor in the subsequent history of the God’s people.

God had ordered Israel to drive out all the inhabitants of Canaan and to destroy all their idols (see Numbers 33:50-52). If any Canaanites were permitted to remain, God warned, they would become “as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides…and I will treat you as I had intended to treat them” (see Numbers 33:55-56).

We’re often troubled and find it difficult to comprehend how God could order or permit the Israelites to wage ethnic genocide against the peoples living in the Promised Land (see Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

Mass murder, of course, is not God’s way. What we see in these commands is an example of the divine Father’s reluctant concession, His sorrowful accommodation to His first-born son’s spiritual weakness.

Later, under the monarchy of David and Solomon and word of the prophets, Israel’s true character will be revealed - a people living among the nations as a sign of God’s providence and wisdom, a people sent to teach and convert the nations to the ways of the living God.

But at this early stage in their history, God knew that His chosen children weren’t ready, spiritually or morally, to live among the idolatrous pagans across the Jordan. He knew they could never live among them without succumbing to idolatry themselves (see Deuteronomy 20:18).

c. Judging By Their Weakness

The history we read in the Book of Judges bears this out.

The “plot” of Judges pivots on the Israelites’ repeated fall into the snare of idolatry, their giving in to the worship of the gods of the Canaanites. The entire book, in fact, is built on this “testing” of Israel’s faithfulness to its covenant with God.

The narrator of Judges tells us that God allowed the pagans to remain in the Promised Land precisely to test Israel’s faithfulness to its covenant - “so that through them [the pagans left in the land] He might…put Israel to the test, to determine whether they would obey the commandments the Lord had enjoined on their fathers through Moses” (see Judges 3:1,4).

Joshua had foreseen Israel’s weakness. At the end of his life, like Moses, he called on Israel to renew its covenant with God (see Joshua 24:13-28). He told the people they must choose - “decide today whom you will serve - the gods your fathers served beyond the river [Jordan] or the gods of the Amorites in whose countries you are dwelling” (see Joshua 24:15).

But like Moses, Joshua also predicted they wouldn’t be able to keep the covenant (see Joshua 24:19; compare Deuteronomy 31:16,24-29).

He was right. Israel failed the test. That’s the message of Judges. That’s why the history we read there seems to repeat itself in a sad cycle of sin, punishment, repentance, forgiveness, and backsliding into sin again.
 
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