Old Testament Prophecies

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daler said:
Blue,
. There are many who would agree with you, but I fully believe in Christ without accepting His “physical” Resurrection as is commonly understood.

. I believe that His eternal Reality, as in: “Before Abraham was, I am”, is what survived the crucifixion of His body, and I am prepared to die for that fact, as well, my friend…
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That’s fine, I am sure we will all in up in the same place - but above isn’t full Christianity.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
That’s fine, I am sure we will all in up in the same place - but above isn’t full Christianity.
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Blue,
. I don’t know if you have further interest in the topic or not, but I found myself reviewing this thread and wish to add comment.

. There are times when people wish to speak for Christ, or Christianity, and deny others the right or freedom to express whatever it is that they find themselves believing. I don’t think that is what you mean to do, so please do not take insult.

. What I am attempting to say, however, is that coming from a Christian background myself, and growing in broader fields than the original pastures of my upbringing, my understanding of Jesus the Christ has expanded beyond the manger I was raised in, back on the farm.

. Having mixed with a variety of cultures around the world, and learned how myths and stories are coded into literature, it has become apparent that where religion is concerned, much is hidden and veiled purposely to test the souls.

. It is an essential nature of growth that we struggle to understand. For example, in first grade we learned to count: 1, 2, 3 Then we add: 1 + 2 = 3

. Perhaps in 2nd grade we learn fractions: 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 2… plus 1/4 + 3/4 = 3

. Later, we learn algebra and trigonometry, geometry and calculus, by which means we advance in our thinking abilities and extend our learning and the application of this knowledge.

. We combine our mathematical skills with other science, such as metallurgy and chemistry. We go from horse drawn carts made of wood to Space Shuttles orbiting the earth.

. All this while, if our understanding of God and religion does not extend beyond literal truths we are handicapped in our understanding of spiritual reality and our own place in the universe, both physical and metaphysical.

. Who Christ is to me now, is different than Who He was to me as a child. I can appreciate Him in ways unknown to me in my earlier years, and am no longer afraid of seeing Him in ways I feared when I was young. Nor am I afraid to voice opinions which may be “outside the box” of conventional wisdom. Nor should others fear conversations which consider literal understanding insufficient, or that recognizing deeper meanings of the Gospels to be a violation of the rules of “the box”.

. Its like in the movie Jaws, where the guy looks back at whats on the line, and says:

. “We’re gonna need a bigger boat!”

. We need a bigger box. One in which modern ideas and understandings can fit.

.
 
Two part question:
  1. For years, I’ve taken it for granted that there were many Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus. But how do we KNOW that these were prophecies pointing toward the coming of a Messiah? Are there scriptural references? Does the knowledge come from other Church teaching?
  2. We Catholics are told that many of the Old Testament prophets spoke prophecies related to the time in which they lived, i.e., the relatively immediate future of Israel after ancient exiles, etc. Do any of these Old Testament prophecies point to current and/or future events? If so, which sources teach this?
Thanks in advance, to the big brains here! 🙂
 
Thanks so much for the responses. Good information.

I’m also wondering how people knew that the Old Testament prophets were prophets. Did they announce themselves as same? Did others say they were?

I’d be interested in some scripture examples, pointing to how people knew.

Thanks again!
 
There are some NT quotes of the OT that are prophecies concerning Christ. And we do have some other OT prophecies that have been interpreted by great Catholic theologians ever since the NT was written. But as for those prophecies that were made by the prophets that are concerning Christ that also had another intention for a time prior to Christ, that is because there were multiple fulfillments. But even though some of those prophecies were made, and even though the prophet himself had intended it to be about something other than Christ, yet the Holy Spirit had another intention that supercedes the authority of the human prophets. There is a deeper spiritual side to those prophecies that reveal more than an earthly temporary fulfillment. The Jews often failed to see past the carnal side into the more spiritual side.
 
Thanks! Good explanation.

Still wondering whether any OT prophets referred to THEMSELVES as prophets–in scripture–, or if others in the OT referred to them as prophets (again, a scriptural source for same?)

Thanks again!
 
The office of a prophet was something that they knew and were aware that they were filling. I think of Jonah, who feared being thought of as a false prophet because he preached destruction to Nineveh, and God changed his sentence because Nineveh repented. As for Scripture references I can’t provide because I’m at work.
 
daler said:
Blue,
. I don’t know if you have further interest in the topic or not, but I found myself reviewing this thread and wish to add comment.

. There are times when people wish to speak for Christ, or Christianity, and deny others the right or freedom to express whatever it is that they find themselves believing. I don’t think that is what you mean to do, so please do not take insult.

. What I am attempting to say, however, is that coming from a Christian background myself, and growing in broader fields than the original pastures of my upbringing, my understanding of Jesus the Christ has expanded beyond the manger I was raised in, back on the farm.

. Having mixed with a variety of cultures around the world, and learned how myths and stories are coded into literature, it has become apparent that where religion is concerned, much is hidden and veiled purposely to test the souls.

. It is an essential nature of growth that we struggle to understand. For example, in first grade we learned to count: 1, 2, 3 Then we add: 1 + 2 = 3

. Perhaps in 2nd grade we learn fractions: 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 2… plus 1/4 + 3/4 = 3

. Later, we learn algebra and trigonometry, geometry and calculus, by which means we advance in our thinking abilities and extend our learning and the application of this knowledge.

. We combine our mathematical skills with other science, such as metallurgy and chemistry. We go from horse drawn carts made of wood to Space Shuttles orbiting the earth.

. All this while, if our understanding of God and religion does not extend beyond literal truths we are handicapped in our understanding of spiritual reality and our own place in the universe, both physical and metaphysical.

. Who Christ is to me now, is different than Who He was to me as a child. I can appreciate Him in ways unknown to me in my earlier years, and am no longer afraid of seeing Him in ways I feared when I was young. Nor am I afraid to voice opinions which may be “outside the box” of conventional wisdom. Nor should others fear conversations which consider literal understanding insufficient, or that recognizing deeper meanings of the Gospels to be a violation of the rules of “the box”.

. Its like in the movie Jaws, where the guy looks back at whats on the line, and says:

. “We’re gonna need a bigger boat!”

. We need a bigger box. One in which modern ideas and understandings can fit.

.
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That’s no problem.
Your approach certainly has merit (i.e. forming “laws” of how ancient religions evolve by seeing developmental patterns in other religions…and then applying those “laws” back to Christianity to find the “real truth” beneath the magicalised “delivery package” as it were.)

But the approach also has weaknesses.
We see it fail in law courts all the time.
“Yes your honour, these injuries “are consistent with” blah blah blah.
Then 3 years later someone else is conclusively found to be the real criminal - using a different weapon from the innocent guy yet also consistant with the injuries.”

That is the weakness of the “now I am educated and no longer a child approach.”
Just because a certain interpretation fits the facts doesn’t mean it is the only possible answer.

This “rationalist” approach can come unstuck when we are dealing with “Revelation.” Revelation purports to say that some human experiences are so unique and one-off that religions start up on their account to pass down this new empricial information that noone can “prove” but only accept on faith.

But rationalists will always discount the possibility of such experiences because, by definition, such unique empirical experiences will not be found in other religions. Certainly there may be similar (sort of) myths found in other religions. But empirical experiences behind them - no.

Yet mainstream Catholic tradition has always held that, for example, the Resurrection account is literal and not a deep truth presented in a myth.

If that is the self-understanding of Early Christians then Christianity collapses if its merely a myth. Of course AB Spong and many others still maintain its not literal.

They are certainly entitled to their view - as am I 👍.

As I say its not worth a lot of energy discussing as neither side can presently prove it either way. As long as we DO what Christ asks we will probably end up in the right place all the same.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
But the approach also has weaknesses.
We see it fail in law courts all the time.
“Yes your honour, these injuries “are consistent with” blah blah blah.
Then 3 years later someone else is conclusively found to be the real criminal - using a different weapon from the innocent guy yet also consistant with the injuries.”

That is the weakness of the “now I am educated and no longer a child approach.”
Just because a certain interpretation fits the facts doesn’t mean it is the only possible answer.

This “rationalist” approach can come unstuck when we are dealing with “Revelation.” Revelation purports to say that some human experiences are so unique and one-off that religions start up on their account to pass down this new empricial information that noone can “prove” but only accept on faith.

But rationalists will always discount the possibility of such experiences because,

As I say its not worth a lot of energy discussing as neither side can presently prove it either way. As long as we DO what Christ asks we will probably end up in the right place all the same.
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Dear friend Blue,
. Thank you for your most courteous and well thought out response. I must agree that more than anything else, we must “do”, and not profess…

. When my troubled “rational mind” comes to the movie and is told to exit the religious theater because it is the “wrong color”, it seeks another theatre. One in which it is accepted, and not merely shown the door.

. For example, in the story of the “loaves and fishes”, the very first thing Jesus tells His disciples is to “share” what food they have with the 5000 hungry souls. By setting this example, Jews and Gentiles, friends and strangers, overcame their barriers of pride and unfamiliarity, extended their courtesy to people they previously could not identify with, and in this duplication of the simple sharing of food with complete strangers, an infinitely broader spiritual communion occurred.

. Over 1900 years later, how few have been able to cross the “color barrier”, even among modern Christians, until someone came along and said: “I have a dream…”

. While many hold to literal loaves and fishes coming out of the air, others recognize that within the telling of this story, there is an infinitely greater truth being taught. “I “am” my brother’s keeper.”

. It is a far greater miracle indeed, that the Son of Man should come, breaking down such barriers, and create bridges of genuine love and unity between the souls of men, than to perform a bit of magic to entertain the masses, a miracle which is simply physical, and has no social worth.

. Our childish desire for fantasy infiltrates this very story from the start: to turn a commandment of “Love thy neighbor as thyself” on its head, and once again pass by the poor soul on the side of the road because he’s the wrong color.

. I would much prefer to be labeled a “rationalist” than a Pharisee, my friend.

. God bless, either way. It is no sin to bring one’s thinking mind along the path of Faith, nor to come to an understanding which fills the needs of both the head and the heart, in my humble opinion.

.
 
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