Old Testmaent killing vs. Thou shalt not kill

[Abbadon]

This is most unfortunate. If we do not adhere to the teachings of the Church, then why do we bother to call ourselves Catholic at all? I may not know or understand every line of Church doctrine, but I submit every fiber of my being to the teaching authority of the Magisterium, accepting that the Holy Spirit guides the spiritual descendants of Peter into all truth, as the Scriptures promised.

If we waver on any point of Catholic doctrine, then by what claim can we hold to any other? There can be only one Truth, not many, and if we decide privately that we know better than Holy Mother Church, then have we not made ourselves our own authority? May it never be! Let humility and wisdom dictate that we among the sheep do not presume to instruct the shepherds.

If we learn from the mistakes of the past we will see that the churches authority on things like the earth being the center of the universe (for which Galileo went to house arrest), the laws governing “witches”, the literal truth of aspects of the bible, it’s views on women … etc…

The church has been wrong before and has changed it’s agenda, it will continue to be wrong in the future and it shall continue to be wrong today. Perhaps one day the church will final figure it all out flawlessly… Perhaps…

 

[surfinpure]

If we learn from the mistakes of the past we will see that the churches authority on things like the earth being the center of the universe (for which Galileo went to house arrest), the laws governing “witches”, the literal truth of aspects of the bible, it’s views on women … etc…

The church has been wrong before and has changed it’s agenda, it will continue to be wrong in the future and it shall continue to be wrong today. Perhaps one day the church will final figure it all out flawlessly… Perhaps…

We must not fail to distinguish by Church leaders’ opinions on various subjects and Church authority on faith and morals. I believe the “just war” doctrine falls into the latter category, and if it does, it 1) is infallible, and 2) cannot change. It is erroneous to place opinions in the same category as ex cathedra teachings.

I am sorry that you do not accept or believe the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, but this is a Roman Catholic web forum, and you will find that most of us present tend to believe very strongly in these teachings and desire to follow them in their entirety, regardless of the limitations of our understanding. If you re-read my post, you will see that this is the point I was stressing.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Love your enemies…

What could be more clear? What turns the hearts of our enemies more? Returning hurt for hurt? Or love for hurt? The answer to peace is conversion. Love is stronger than strife. Killing - in any shape or form - is not love. I’ve heard too many stories of people turning the hearts of their enemies through love. It works. Evil begets evil. The taking of the life of another person made in the image and likeness of God - for whatever reason - is a sin against God.

“Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, you do unto me”

Who could be more “least” of the people???

What more can we do to Christ? When will we learn? :crying: Mother Theresa saw Jesus in the suffering - why should we not see him in the broken people who commit crime? They are not beyond hope. Anything is possible with God.

Good thing the early church didn’t have the death penalty ready for Paul. What a sinner he was…:nope:

It truly sickens me that this is an area of contention. I pray God would open your eyes.

Peace

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

We must not fail to distinguish by Church leaders’ opinions on various subjects and Church authority on faith and morals. I believe the “just war” doctrine falls into the latter category, and if it does, it 1) is infallible, and 2) cannot change. It is erroneous to place opinions in the same category as ex cathedra teachings.

I am sorry that you do not accept or believe the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, but this is a Roman Catholic web forum, and you will find that most of us present tend to believe very strongly in these teachings and desire to follow them in their entirety, regardless of the limitations of our understanding. If you re-read my post, you will see that this is the point I was stressing.

I, for one, do see that this is the point you are making. This is one of the BIG reasons I struggle with Catholicism. Non-resistance is such an elementary teaching of Christ. Your mindset about the church and about killing is not unlike that which led to the slaughter of thousands (maybe more) of those who disagreed with Catholic teaching.

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”.

Lord have mercy!

I’m backing off now b/c this is too disturbing for me. I think I’ve said enough. I sincerely pray you will read your Bible and discover these truths. There are far more examples there than I have even given.

Peace

 

[surfinpure]

I, for one, do see that this is the point you are making. This is one of the BIG reasons I struggle with Catholicism. Non-resistance is such an elementary teaching of Christ. Your mindset about the church and about killing is not unlike that which led to the slaughter of thousands (maybe more) of those who disagreed with Catholic teaching.

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”.

Lord have mercy!

I’m backing off now b/c this is too disturbing for me. I think I’ve said enough. I sincerely pray you will read your Bible and discover these truths. There are far more examples there than I have even given.

Peace

Friend,

I believe you are sincere, and you say none of this with malice toward the Church or Her body. I implore you, however, to do exactly what it is you have said to me: Read the Scripture! The Lord Jesus Christ himself gave us the Church, instituted Peter as its head, and the rest of Scripture clearly directs us NOT toward personal interpretation (which is extremely dangerous!), but rather toward the God-given teaching authority of the Magisterium!

Lest this ever fall into question, never forget who it was who gave us the Holy Bible – it was the Church Fathers! Without the Roman Catholic Church compiling and preserving the canon of Scripture, there would be no Bible at all!!

Ask yourself, would the Church Fathers, the early Apostles, have written, compiled, and preserved a collection of documents that denies their authority to do so? Ask yourself, also, whether Christ Jesus would have given us his very words and teachings and left no authority on earth capable of interpreting them correctly? Would the Lord God not guard his Word? Would he not protect it throughout millennia to ensure that its meaning was not lost, distorted, or misinterpreted? Of course he would! And he did!

I will pray, as I always do, for the conversion and renewal of all those who have fallen away from the wholeness of Truth, trusting in their own interpretations and earthly wisdom. May the Lord have mercy, and may the Blessed Mother remember them all.

Mary

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Friend,

I believe you are sincere, and you say none of this with malice toward the Church or Her body. I implore you, however, to do exactly what it is you have said to me: Read the Scripture! The Lord Jesus Christ himself gave us the Church, instituted Peter as its head, and the rest of Scripture clearly directs us NOT toward personal interpretation (which is extremely dangerous!), but rather toward the God-given teaching authority of the Magisterium!

Lest this ever fall into question, never forget who it was who gave us the Holy Bible – it was the Church Fathers! Without the Roman Catholic Church compiling and preserving the canon of Scripture, there would be no Bible at all!!

Ask yourself, would the Church Fathers, the early Apostles, have written, compiled, and preserved a collection of documents that denies their authority to do so? Ask yourself, also, whether Christ Jesus would have given us his very words and teachings and left no authority on earth capable of interpreting them correctly? Would the Lord God not guard his Word? Would he not protect it throughout millennia to ensure that its meaning was not lost, distorted, or misinterpreted? Of course he would! And he did!

I will pray, as I always do, for the conversion and renewal of all those who have fallen away from the wholeness of Truth, trusting in their own interpretations and earthly wisdom. May the Lord have mercy, and may the Blessed Mother remember them all.

Mary

Thank you Mary - and I realize you too are sincere. I have considered each of your points. I have worked through those considerations a lot the past few years and feel I’ve exhausted them. All that lingers of my Catholicity at this point is a small thread of faith in the Eucharist (Real Presence). That is what I am currently working on, but as usual, the more I try to work it out (even in the hopes that the answers will point to Catholicism, b/c I would love to remain Catholic for so many reasons!) the further away I get to accepting Catholic teaching.

Thank you for prayers, and God bless you~

 

[surfinpure]

Thank you Mary - and I realize you too are sincere. I have considered each of your points. I have worked through those considerations a lot the past few years and feel I’ve exhausted them. All that lingers of my Catholicity at this point is a small thread of faith in the Eucharist (Real Presence). That is what I am currently working on, but as usual, the more I try to work it out (even in the hopes that the answers will point to Catholicism, b/c I would love to remain Catholic for so many reasons!) the further away I get to accepting Catholic teaching.

Thank you for prayers, and God bless you~

I rejoice, then, in your belief in the Real Presence! All hope is not lost. I pray that you will visit the Blessed Sacrament and pour out your heard to Our Lord. He always hears the honest prayer of a humble heart.

God be with you!