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JKirkLVNV
Guest
The monastic community that rec. me into the Church has no kneelers. Everyone kneels on the cold (and in Colorado, it can get very cold) tile floor. The chapel only has a wood burning stove for heat, as well.
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J
Joan_M
Guest
Actually, there are! Yes, there are no kneelers, neither pews, in the main nave of the Basilica. However, there are many altars along the sides, and there are usually a number of pews with kneelers facing a number of these altars.
There are definitely no kneelers in St. Peter’s Square - where Canonizations take place, and most of the people there kneel - on the cobble stones.
Personally, I don’t care if there are no kneelers, I will kneel, even if I am the only one kneeling.
D
Defensor_Fidei
Guest
Joan M:
-Ted
When I was at Mass in St Peter’s square for Mother Theresa’s beatification, I gladly knelt down on the ground.
-Ted
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seeker63
Guest
Call me weird, but I like to occasionally kneel on the floor. It makes me feel like what it must have been like in the Middle Ages. Plus it also caters to the very faint strain of bodily mortification I have running through me. Kneeling on stone or tile seems like going an extra mile in dedication and proper frame of mind.
There was a church in my town that was recently renovated and for a long time the pews were taken out and everybody had to sit in metal chairs. Some of the people in that situation kneeled, while others didn’t. Sometimes I’d get there so late I’d have to stand in the narthex, amd some of us knelt on the floor and some didn’t.
There was a church in my town that was recently renovated and for a long time the pews were taken out and everybody had to sit in metal chairs. Some of the people in that situation kneeled, while others didn’t. Sometimes I’d get there so late I’d have to stand in the narthex, amd some of us knelt on the floor and some didn’t.
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Catholicguy
Guest
If I’m in a Church without kneelers, I stand. When in Rome…
Also, it was in the middle ages when kneeling was forced upon the parishoners. We used to stand. For instance, in 325 A.D. the 20th Canon of the Council of Nicea forbade kneeling.
I doubt the Apostles were kneeling in the Cenacle…
While I grew-up with kneelers and I try to follow the GIRM, I am less “freaked-out” about changes the more I read Liturgical History.
And don’t forget the Bishop has Jurisidiction; rightly so.
Also, it was in the middle ages when kneeling was forced upon the parishoners. We used to stand. For instance, in 325 A.D. the 20th Canon of the Council of Nicea forbade kneeling.
I doubt the Apostles were kneeling in the Cenacle…
While I grew-up with kneelers and I try to follow the GIRM, I am less “freaked-out” about changes the more I read Liturgical History.
And don’t forget the Bishop has Jurisidiction; rightly so.
S
sandyeggo
Guest
Also, it was in the middle ages when kneeling was forced upon the parishoners. We used to stand. For instance, in 325 A.D. the 20th Canon of the Council of Nicea forbade kneeling.
Interesting. Saving for future reference.
Interesting. Saving for future reference.
J
JNB
Guest
sandyeggo said:
Different churches under different Patriarchs and Bishops at the time had different customs. Kneeling in the West goes back to the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great, if not earlier.
Also of note is that much of the “evidence” used to ram though these measures comes from questionable historical scholarship, and again, this “scholarship” often did not take into account the different liturgical practices in use in different parts of the world during that time.
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SouthCoast
Guest
Okay, you guys piqued my interest, so being a history nut, I had to look it up…
Someone please explain the definition of “The Lord’s Day” in the 20th Canon of the Council of Nicea (quoted below):
**"CANON XX.
FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s
Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things
may be uniformly observed everywhere(in every parish), it seems good
to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
NOTES.
ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not
kneeling.
HAMMOND.
Although kneeling was the common posture for prayer in the primitive
Church, yet the custom had prevailed, even from the earliest times, of
standing at prayer on the Lord’s day, and during the fifty days between
Easter and Pentecost. Tertullian, in a passage in his treatise De Corona
Militis, which is often quoted, mentions it amongst other ohservances
which, though not expressly commanded in Scripture, yet were
universally practised upon the authority of tradition. “We consider it
unlawful,” he says, “to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord’s day;
we enjoy the same liberty from Easter-day to that of Pentecost.” De
Cor. Mil. s. 3, 4. Many other of the Fathers notice the same practice,
the reason of which, as given by Augustine; and others, was to
commemorate the resurrection of our Lord, and to signify the rest and
joy of our own resurrection, which that of our Lord assured. This
canon, as Beveridge observes, is a proof of the importance formerly
attached to an uniformity of sacred rites throughout the Church, which
made the Nicene Fathers thus sanction and enforce by their authority a
practice which in itself is indifferent, and not commanded directly or
indirectly in Scripture, and assign this as their reason for doing so: “In
order that all things may be observed in like manner in every parish”
or diocese.
HEFELE.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in
the Acts of the Apostles(xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed
kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III,
De Cone. Dist. III. c. x."**
Someone please explain the definition of “The Lord’s Day” in the 20th Canon of the Council of Nicea (quoted below):
**"CANON XX.
FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s
Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things
may be uniformly observed everywhere(in every parish), it seems good
to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
NOTES.
ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not
kneeling.
HAMMOND.
Although kneeling was the common posture for prayer in the primitive
Church, yet the custom had prevailed, even from the earliest times, of
standing at prayer on the Lord’s day, and during the fifty days between
Easter and Pentecost. Tertullian, in a passage in his treatise De Corona
Militis, which is often quoted, mentions it amongst other ohservances
which, though not expressly commanded in Scripture, yet were
universally practised upon the authority of tradition. “We consider it
unlawful,” he says, “to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord’s day;
we enjoy the same liberty from Easter-day to that of Pentecost.” De
Cor. Mil. s. 3, 4. Many other of the Fathers notice the same practice,
the reason of which, as given by Augustine; and others, was to
commemorate the resurrection of our Lord, and to signify the rest and
joy of our own resurrection, which that of our Lord assured. This
canon, as Beveridge observes, is a proof of the importance formerly
attached to an uniformity of sacred rites throughout the Church, which
made the Nicene Fathers thus sanction and enforce by their authority a
practice which in itself is indifferent, and not commanded directly or
indirectly in Scripture, and assign this as their reason for doing so: “In
order that all things may be observed in like manner in every parish”
or diocese.
HEFELE.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in
the Acts of the Apostles(xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed
kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III,
De Cone. Dist. III. c. x."**
P
Patchunky
Guest
CHRISTOS VOSKRES!
They mean on Sunday, the Lord’s Day.
In the Eastern church, there is no kneeling during Divine Liturgy on Sunday.
From Pascha (Easter) until the Feast of Pentecost, there is no kneeling at all.
On Pentecost, there are special “kneeling” prayers chanted at the end of the Divine Liturgy where the priest and the faithful kneel before the ikonostas and call down the Holy Spirit.
There are many Ukrainian Catholic and Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parishes where the faithful kneel during Divine Liturgy - EXCEPT FROM PASKA UNTIL PENTECOST.
This is a “Latinization” that crept into our Churches to make them “fit in” with other Catholics. It is slowly and in some cases, painfully, being phased out.
Hope this helps…
CHRISTOS ANESTI!
S
sandyeggo
Guest
So you are saying the kneeling is a Latinization and is being phased out? Just making sure I’m understanding you.
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sandyeggo
Guest
The Council of Nicea certainly shows that there was an attempt to bring all of the liturgical practices into conformity. However, it is completely orthodox for the Eastern Catholic Churches to remain standing.
I must say that it has been difficult for me to stand when attending an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy. My Roman Catholic knees prefer to bend. Luckily, the church I attend allows either, so I kneel.
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