Omnipotence, God's Will and Suffering

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According to the Catechism not all natural evil is a punishment for moral evil. Otherwise it would not have stated that the evils in nature seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures. Do you think diseases and deformities caused by genetic mutations are punishments?
According to my understanding of things, Adam and Eve did not suffer even a single mosquito bite, before they sinned. There was no suffering in pre-Fall Eden, and there will be no more suffering in Heaven. So why, according to you, does God allow suffering?
 
It is true that those who go to hell go there because of their own choices, but it is also true that they did not make the choices necessary for salvation because God did not give them the sufficient grace needed to do so. from Catechism, paras. 2008 and 2025:

“Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”

“We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.”
It is true that those who go to hell go there because of their own choices, but it is NOT true that they did not make the right choices because God did not give them sufficient grace. The Catechism does not support you in this. God always gives sufficient grace for salvation to every soul. Those who are condemned freely reject grace, so that it remains sufficient only and not efficacious.
 
It is true that those who go to hell go there because of their own choices, but it is NOT true that they did not make the right choices because God did not give them sufficient grace. The Catechism does not support you in this. God always gives sufficient grace for salvation to every soul. Those who are condemned freely reject grace, so that it remains sufficient only and not efficacious.
Pardon me; that is the concept I was trying to refer to - efficacious grace. God gives grace to all, and that grace is sufficient in that man has a rational faculty and can choose to cooperate with grace or not. I was using the word sufficient in the sense that an efficacious grace results in certain cooperation (which I maintain is primarily due to the power of the grace, as the Catechism parallels.)
 
According to the Catechism not all natural evil is a punishment for moral evil. Otherwise it would not have stated that the evils in nature seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures. Do you think diseases and deformities caused by genetic mutations are punishments?
According to my understanding of things, Adam and Eve did not suffer even a single mosquito bite, before they sinned. There was no suffering in pre-Fall Eden, and there will be no more suffering in Heaven. So why, according to you, does God allow suffering?
Your interpretation is inconsistent with the Catechism’s view that the evils in nature seem to be linked to the **limitations **proper to creatures. God allows suffering because a **physical **world is necessarily finite and imperfect. It is absurd to think we can have everything for nothing, that there can never be any accidents, mishaps or genetic errors. Nature is not infallible nor can physical laws cater for the precise needs of every individual. Only the Creator is perfect in every respect.
 
While you are free to take offense at anything you choose to be offended by, to offend you was most certainly not my intent. Since to instruct the ignorant is in fact a Work of Mercy, that was my intent: to help you to learn. Ignorance is simply a condition of lack of knowledge, and you seem to lack particular knowledge. I am looking out for your best interest! I am encouraging you to educate yourself regarding the proper theological use of terms.

I won’t apologize for kindly encouraging you to learn. But perhaps I was too brief in my remark. I would have thought the link I provided was clear enough, but, it seems not. So you are offended — not my fault. But perhaps I should have taken the time to explain to you clearly, exactly why I held that you were in want of some instruction. While I do not perceive that I had that duty, I allow that I may have assumed too much. So in any case, I mean to repair, in this post, for any lack in my previous post.

Your statement of what you call “obvious” is in fact false. I am not unaware of Calvin’s abuse of the theological term. I thought I was talking to a Catholic. I was unprepared for a discussion of Protestant Error.

As someone else also pointed out to you, the term “predestined” is from Holy Scripture. Thus, it is Catholic Doctrine that God predestines His Elect. Now, it is also Catholic Doctrine, and likewise Scriptural, that God leaves man in the hand of his own counsel, i.e. gives him free will. Calvin denied this; Calvinism is heresy. Calvin’s false doctrine of predestinationism is that man, as a result of the Fall, is so entirely depraved (“Total Depravity”) that his free will is extinguished. Therefore, according to Calvin, God has foreordained His elect, and saves them without requiring anything at all on their part. (“Unconditional Election”) Further, not all are saved. (“Limited Atonement” — but that not all are saved is also Catholic Doctrine) Since there is no free will, grace works, according to Calvin, entirely without the co-operation of the human being. (“Irresistible Grace”) And finally, according to Calvin, once a person believes, he is forever saved, and no amount of sinning can ever earn him eternal damnation (“Perseverance of the Elect.”)

By contrast: God’s Church teaches that human free will is attenuated, not extinguished, by the Fall; that the elect are so not only by God’s choice but also by their own co-operation with grace; that God positively wills the salvation of all without exception; that grace can be resisted, and requires co-operation; and finally, that perseverance in grace essentially consists in the soul’s co-operation with grace. Mysteriously, even this co-operation, is itself a grace.

To sum up: the Catholic Church maintains that human free will is real, and that salvation is not an affair that is all on the side of God and none on the side of man, but a co-operative venture between God and man.

That said, the fact of a soul being led by God into total co-operation with grace (whether in this life or by Fire in Purgatory) has a name given to it in theology, taken from Scripture. It is called predestination.

I have very little interest in discussing the nuances of Calvin’s heresy. I am not a Calvinist heretic. I was a little bit surprised that first of all, you would state, “predestination is condemned by the Church,” when the reality is that predestination is taught by the Church; it is Calvinism that is condemned. And second, that you would assume, on a Catholic forum, that someone using a term from Catholic theology was using it in an inaccurate and heretical sense.

I assumed you were in good faith and were actually unaware of your error; that is why I asked you, kindly, to educate yourself.
The fact remains that “in broad Christian conversation, predestination refers to the view of predestination commonly associated with John Calvin and the Calvinist branch of the Protestant Reformation; and, this is the non-technical sense in which the term is typically used today, when belief in predestination is affirmed or denied”.

This is a Philosophy forum where Catholic beliefs are not held by all its participants. In a predominantly secular society - such as the UK - the term “Predestination” is understood literally as “Predetermined destiny” - which rules out free will.
 
Are you mistaking me for God?
Of course not, but you did say,
“The simplicity of it is, God plainly allows such things — natural disasters, abortions, school shootings — to happen. What is not so plain is that if there were no sin, none of it would happen. What people need to recognize, and what many have already begun to notice, is that these things are increasing in frequency. The reality is that they will continue to increase until sin begins to decrease, and then they will subside. God is eliminating sin.”
If natural disasters are the consequence of sin and they would subside as sin decreases, then there is a coorelation between innocent suffering and sin. It does not seem just for the innocent to suffer for the guilty. I don’t try to make that correlation. I just say I do not understand and trust it to God.

And then the catechism does say:
400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

Even “Harmony with creation is broken” by this first sin.

It also says:
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

All which seems to support your position. I personally have a difficult time accepting that as anything but mythology. That at some point in evolutionary history a specific person or two people changed all creation.

There is no disputing abuse of freedom and disobedience in the human race:

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. .

But the understanding that “Adam and Eve did not suffer even a single mosquito bite, before they sinned.” And then all creation goes out of whack sounds far too literal for me.
 
Of course not, but you did say,

If natural disasters are the consequence of sin and they would subside as sin decreases, then there is a coorelation between innocent suffering and sin. It does not seem just for the innocent to suffer for the guilty. I don’t try to make that correlation. I just say I do not understand and trust it to God.

And then the catechism does say:
400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

Even “Harmony with creation is broken” by this first sin.

It also says:
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

All which seems to support your position. I personally have a difficult time accepting that as anything but mythology. That at some point in evolutionary history a specific person or two people changed all creation.

There is no disputing abuse of freedom and disobedience in the human race:

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. .

But the understanding that “Adam and Eve did not suffer even a single mosquito bite, before they sinned.” And then all creation goes out of whack sounds far too literal for me.
👍 It is a case of confusing natural evil with moral evil. The human race has polluted the world and even caused earthquakes but there is abundant evidence that accidents, diseases, disasters and deformities occurred long before our ancestors appeared on the scene…
 
👍 It is a case of confusing natural evil with moral evil. The human race has polluted the world and even caused earthquakes but there is abundant evidence that accidents, diseases, disasters and deformities occurred long before our ancestors appeared on the scene…
But then doesn’t our catechism need a little tune up.

“visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.”

I think it has always been hostile…beautiful and awesome but also hostile.
 
👍 It is a case of confusing natural evil with moral evil. The human race has polluted the world and even caused earthquakes but there is abundant evidence that accidents, diseases, disasters and deformities occurred long before our ancestors appeared on the scene…
i wouldn’t deny that those things existed but I do deny that humankind experienced any suffering prevail and maintain, as our catechism states, that all human suffering is a result of the fall.
 
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