On Abortion and IVF

[Ruthie]

*When I did IVF I viewed it as finally giving my embryos a chance. We did not view any of the embryos as sacrificial lambs or a necessary casualty. Every single embryo was our baby and we treated them as such.
*
I’m sure you did; that is clear to me! My questions were aimed at anyone considering IVF. That includes you, but isn’t restricted to you.

I still stand by my question, though. The scientists routinely implant more than one baby at a time; this seems to implicate that they expect some to die. I’m sure you would welcome triplets. But what are the odds?

Ruthie

 

[Catherine555]

Here are some questions that poke holes in the argument that it’s okay to use IVF as long as no “surplus embryos” are produced.

Say you get two live babies from 10 implanted ones. Do you think that if you could conceive naturally that you would have had 8 miscarriages out of ten pregnancies? If not, weren’t up to 8 babies sentenced to death just as effectively as if they became the subject of research?

So the scientists are keeping a few frozen babies for you. What happens to them if something happens to you, like a hysterectomy, or death? Will they remain in the freezer forever? Or will they eventually have to be moved to make room for more? What happens to them then?

I am not anti-science. I’ve got a good, analytical and rational mind. I am also compassionate. But I will go with the Church. And I will love children produced by IVF just like I love the rest of them.

Ruthie

Hi Ruthie,

It is a scientific fact that women miscarry more often then they think. Most just don’t pay enough attention. They may miscarry early and just think it’s their period. But I use natural family planning. sometimes I’m more diligent about it than others so there could have been miscarriages that I missed. Then there’s the miscarriage I had before I had my daughter that I now suspect was due to endo. Now the thing that took my first child has a name. There ends a mystery for me.

But I would never implant that many embryos. I was thinking of maybe 3 or 4 at the most. We’ll see if the docs can agree to something like that if I do IVF.

Not planing on freezing my babies either. Again we’ll see what the docs think of that. I have heard that it is a problem with banks having unclaimed embryos. I’ll try to avoid that problem by not freezing any.

Peace.

 

[Catherine555]

“Sentenced to death???” No, that’s not what I did. When I did IVF I viewed it as finally giving my embryos a chance. I had numerous ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. My husband and I could create an embryo but it never traveled where it should (stayed in the fallopian tubes) or if it did, it did not implant in a “healthy” part of my uterus. In fact I had 3 tubals and 4 miscarriages. IVF placed the embryos exactly where they needed to be. Usually the doctor implanted 2 or 3. Then - I ate right, avoided stress, and desperately tried to do what I could to make sure that each embryo had a chance to LIFE. We did not view any of the embryos as sacrificial lambs or a necessary casualty. Every single embryo was our baby and we treated them as such.

This is where I will absolutely have to concede to you. When I first did IVF I absolutely felt I considered everything. It was only later that I really faced this. I have 4 frozen embryos that I plan to have implanted in the next 2 weeks. What happens to these babies, if something should happen to me before then? It terrifies me. If my husband and I decide to do IVF again (and that is a distinct possibility) we have already decided that we will only create the embryos that we plan to implant at that time. No more than that - and no freezing. It is definitely something someone should consider before going through with IVF. I am glad that you brought it to light.

God bless

Thank you for sharing. I too see it as I have good eggs. I have a good uterus. My husband has healthy sperm. My tubes are just clogged with gunk. Science may have a way of bringing my next child into this world. And I would be grateful for that.

Endo is not my first health problem it’s actually has been a string of insults. But I’ve gotten past them. Now there’s is actually something that can be done about my problems. But in the beginning I knew more than my doctors. I had to find my way back to health with out much help from them. It took me 5 years to have my first child after I was married instead of the 3 that I had planned. My health problems returned after the toll of becoming a Mom had on my body. Now that I feel ready to have another child I have another health problem in the way.

Here’s a very negative way to look at it. They recommend conceiving within 6 months after surgery for endo because in 6 months time it will have progressed to where you were before surgery. So I feel I have 4 months left in my life to have a child. Does not give me much time to try anything other that that which has the best odds: IVF.

 

[Catherine555]

Hmm…well, while I see your point, I would have to say that if someone has truly accomplished all 70, they couldn’t think of themselves as superior to others:



Quite frankly, if you actually meet someone who has accomplished all of those items St. Benedict listed, you have most probably met a living saint. No one should, as you say in the following quote, consider the “checklist” “the only and absolute truth.” If someone says that, they are being foolish. I agree with you - the best way to use the list is as an examination of conscience.

Sure, but don’t be too hasty to judge another as a Pharisee. In doing so, you are most likely sinning and/or being hypocritical yourself. Remember, “Pharisees” are sinners, just like you and me. If you think you are better, because you are not a Pharisee…well, that would be pride.

No, I do not judge anyone a Pharisee. I’m just sharing that a danger of having check list and saying you comply with the Church concerning IVF is that you get a false sense of security. Others have shared that I am risking my soul for considering IVF. My point is we all need to be careful. Even those who comply with the Church’s teaching. You are not safe just because you comply.

 

[Catherine555]

Sort of like some young unmarried women who hit 30 feel. And yeah, when the time is past you do look back on those years of little children with a little melancholy, at least if you’re me. You grow up with kids all running over eachother (siblings). Then comes your own kids and the crazy years. It was snotty noses and kids all your life, and then suddenly, poof, it’s done. But the time clock is running on life and with each phase there is the sadness, challenges, and the need to learn a new way to live.

I have arm wrestled God to exhaustion over my personal “sticky” problem and have never understood why he doesn’t see it my way. I’ve yelled at him a little, tried quitting talking to him, bargained with him, went to the saints for prayers, made novenas. He hasn’t budged for years. I think if he just did what I need him to do for me, this one big thing, it would all be so much better for me and without it I don’t know what will happen long term. He just won’t do it, and I am left with believing he is in the picture for me and knows what he’s doing, or believing something else. But he has already done great things for me, and if he wants me to suffer through this, then he must know why and so I’m giving in to him. … But I’m still gonna pester him over it.

Well, the best games are those won in the last seconds!

Hi Biggie,

I’ve had other sticky problems that I have prayed a lot about and God stubbornly did not see my way. I’ve gotten peace about those and have actually stopped pestering.

But my kids, uh, that’s an even harder one to give up on. Especially since I feel I am so close to a solution.

Keep praying for His mercy but also keep praying for the ability to accept his will.

Peace

 

[rlg94086]

No, I do not judge anyone a Pharisee. I’m just sharing that a danger of having check list and saying you comply with the Church concerning IVF is that you get a false sense of security. Others have shared that I am risking my soul for considering IVF. My point is we all need to be careful. Even those who comply with the Church’s teaching. You are not safe just because you comply.

I didn’t see IVF on “the list.”

As I explained, the list is primarily for the purpose of doing an Examination of Conscience. St. Benedict created it out of specific passages from the Bible. I still stand by the fact that if you meet someone who “complies” with every one of those items and, I’ll add, has reached the 12th step of humility, then you have met a living saint. Be thankful you were blessed with their presence.

If, however, you meet someone who says they have “complied” or even thinks they have “complied” with the list, then you are right - they aren’t safe…because if they tell you that or assume it for themselves, they haven’t truly “complied.”
Philippians 2:

12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.