On Forgiveness

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Robert in SD:
Hello all:

It seems to me from the above that we are called to be just as forgiving as Christ, who forgave even those who were in the act of crucifying Him - and were unrepentent. I’m sure that while all were ignorant of exactly what they were doing (as Christ says), some were probably quite aware of the fact that they were crucifying an innocent - yet Christ begged His Father to forgive them all - without exception. This is the cross we bear as christians. We must forgive just as God forgives us.

But that does not mean we let the criminals go free. Yes, we can pray that God forgive our enemy’s sins, but even so, a person must face the consequences of that sin - even if it is a sin that has been forgiven him or her. If you are convicted of murder or pedaphilia, you go to jail. The sin may be forgiven, but the punishment for the crime is still required by our society. This is not inconsistent. A boy may throw a rock and break a window - then ask the owner for forgiveness that is given… But even if he is forgiven he must still replace the window he broke. That is not vengeance or retribution, but justice.
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Chist did not speak the words of forgiveness to those who crucified him, He implored God the Father to forgive them. (Though I daresay Christ was willing to forgive each and every one of them, as he is as ready to forgive me- even before I am repentant).
 
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TOmNossor:
In a May 1988 Ensign article, After quoting D&C 64:9 Elder Oaks said, “If we always remember our Savior, we will forgive and forget grievances against those who have wronged us.”

In a Nov 1974 Ensign article, After quoting Matthew 18:22 (seven times seventy) Elder Franklin D. Richards said, “An important part of forgiving is forgetting. In some ways, being able to forget is almost as valuable as being able to remember.”
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Tom,

I agree with the majority of what you’ve written and quoted (and don’t think that there’s any way to disagree, really) but I do want to point out that forgetting is not a process that we can really control as we might like. If someone harms us or others in some way we can and many usually do forgive (there are those that do not, I know - I count myself fortunate in that I have never been in a position where, personally, I could not forgive someone, with God’s active grace, that had ‘sinned’, in some way, against myself or those whom I love and have loved) but forgetting is a physiological/psychological function that just isn’t possible, unless one is suffering from an illness. The important thing is not to let the inability to forget fester to the point where one becomes resentful again and finds it necessary to forgive the same ‘sin’ (or injustice) over and over again.

Many years ago a friend of mine suffered the almost urban legend like episode of coming home early from a business trip and walking in on his wife of one year and his best friend in bed together. He told me that he was so stunned that he was unable to move, that he stood and watched for several minutes before walking back down the stairs in tears. This was a man not prone to anger and he was, at this point, only in shock and hurting. He said that he walked back up the steps - making noise this time - and was noticed by his wife and friend who immediately covered themselves, etc. The ‘best friend’ (married, as well - they were both friends of mine) left the house, his wife cried, said it had never happened before, would never happen again, etc. My friends spent over a year talking to priests, counselors, etc., and he was finally able to forgive her. But they lived liked brother and sister for almost three years after the incident because, as he said, whenever he thought of his wife in a sexual way he had a ‘movie’ that ran in his head that would not allow him to ‘forget’ - a movie filmed in those minutes that he stood in the bedroom doorway.

He was really reaching a point of desperation - he felt that he had forgiven his wife but he felt that because he was unable to ‘forget’ that perhaps he had not forgiven her - beating himself up because he could not forget only increased the problem. After just over three years, though, life began anew and they now have wonderful children and grandchildren and are both delightful people, singularly and as a couple. But he recently told me that even now, over 40 after the event, he could still see ‘the movie’ as if it were a 1960’s Technicolor production - it’s not something he has ever been able to forget but rather something that he came to, in his words, ‘forgot to remember’. He made this simple remark recently - two and one-half years ago, maybe - and I remember how much I laughed and then he laughed when he used the phrase. It’s a good one - and it’s something that I’m sure is totally unoriginal but I had never quite heard ‘forgetting’ described in such a simplistic yet understandable form.

So while I don’t think it’s possible, at times, to ‘forget’ that which we can forgive, I think it’s certainly possible (and one might say with time) to ‘forget to remember’.

And I wonder how many marriages could be saved - even with adultery involved - if we weren’t such a society of immediate gratification; if we could wait for, pray for, both the ability to forgive and (just as importantly in this particular instance) the ability to be forgiven - and if we could all forget to remember.
 
Robert in SD:
The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
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In the parable of the merciless servant, the fellow servant had begged the debtor for patience and promised that he would repay the debt in full. That is completely different from the unrepentent offender we are discussing here.

Of course when a debtor or an offender apologizes and asks for our mercy we are obligated to extend that mercy. That is not the subject of this debate.

If you can’t distinguish between the two, or refuse to do so, then there is no basis for discussion.

Paul
 
All,

I do not think I have seen any new piece of data or organizing of the facts to respond too. If I am mistaken and someone thinks it is important to provide an answer to an objection, I will be happy to do this.

I have been trying to convince myself that I am wrong for the past day or so. I am hoping to provide some of my thoughts on how I personally see the position I do not advocate in its best light, when I have completed collecting these thought I will post them.

I thought I would mention a little about forgetting. I think forgiving and forgetting are linked, but unlike “forgiving the unrepentant” I see this as much less solid AND open for different interpretations.
  • I liked Ben’s “forget to remember.”
  • Clara Barton the founder of the Red Cross when confronted with something done to her in the past seemed remarkably unphased even unaware. She was asked incredulously, “Don’t you remember that.” She said, “No, but I distinctly remember forgetting it.”
  • I liked Demosthenes idea of, “From an eternal prospective, I think that to forget may be inherent in true and complete foregivenss.” In non-threatening Catholic terms I would suggest that those redeemed united in the glorious beatific vision will possess no memories of the forgiven sins and pains inflicted on each other throughout this life.
  • I read a great story told by a Protestant minister about a Catholic priest who had done some unnamed sin, repented, but always felt less for his past transgression. A wonderful lady in this priest’s parish claimed that she regularly spoke with Christ in her dreams. The priest was somewhat incredulous, and seemingly for some evidence asked the lady to ask Christ what grave sin her priest had done so long ago. Later, the priest asked the lady, “Did Christ come to you in your dreams?” She said, “Yes.” “Did you ask Him about my past sin?” She said, “Yes.” What did He say it was? She said, “He said, ‘I forgot’”
  • I believe the most important part of forgetting associated with forgiving is being able to look at the person who hurt you in a way that no longer involves the hurt. I call this once again seeing only the divine in the person who hurt you. Alternatively, it could be only seeing the person who hurt you as your brother or sister (be it Christian or human brother or sister). This means that you may temporally know the forgiven sinner is very able to “burn down your house,” and thus you do not leave them alone with matches. But you do not see them as the sinner who burned down your house, you see them as the son or daughter of God who you love.
Anyway, I will come back and explain how I would best read the Bible if I felt it best to not “forgive the unrepentant.” I do not think I have convinced myself, but if I break down forgiveness a little, I can make a case for how we both forgive and do not forgive (this has been mentioned a little in this thread already).

Charity, TOm
 
forgetting is a physiological/psychological function that just isn’t possible, unless one is suffering from an illness.
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Part of Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder is not remembering the incident-- blotting it out of one’s mind because it brings up such extreme negative emotions. However, it does not work well as a defense, because that repressed memory comes up unbidden when one encounters stimuli similar to the traumatic incident. Another related phenomenon is exhaustion, caused by sleep disorder or Chronic Fatigue syndrome, also both of which can be related to extremely stressful situations.
 
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TOmNossor:
I have been trying to convince myself that I am wrong for the past day or so. I am hoping to provide some of my thoughts on how I personally see the position I do not advocate in its best light, when I have completed collecting these thought I will post them.
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If you aren’t able to achieve this, then just accept it for now. God won’t look down on you for it. 👍
 
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Jerusha:
ben_dy said:
forgetting
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is a physiological/psychological function that just isn’t possible, unless one is suffering from an illness.

Part of Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder is not remembering the incident-- blotting it out of one’s mind because it brings up such extreme negative emotions. However, it does not work well as a defense, because that repressed memory comes up unbidden when one encounters stimuli similar to the traumatic incident. Another related phenomenon is exhaustion, caused by sleep disorder or Chronic Fatigue syndrome, also both of which can be related to extremely stressful situations.

I think the most important thing to note about forgetting and about forgiving is that we are not expected to do this through our human will and physiological/psychological functioning. It is Christ who makes it possible for us to do things that fallen man cannot.

That being said, I am convinced that Christ does not make us do anything. He makes possible things we CHOOSE to do through Him, but if we do not CHOOSE such things He will not force them upon us. This is one of the reasons it is important to know that which is possible through Christ and that which is the will of God regardless of the impractical dimensions of such things. As we act we do not hope to cease to be ”in the world,” but we must hope to cease to be “of the world.” Then even in failure, we can turn to Christ for healing.

Charity, TOm
 
From Robert SD

"It seems to me from the above that we are called to be just as forgiving as Christ, who forgave even those who were in the act of crucifying Him - and were unrepentent. I’m sure that while all were ignorant of exactly what they were doing (as Christ says), some were probably quite aware of the fact that they were crucifying an innocent - yet Christ begged His Father to forgive them all - without exception. This is the cross we bear as christians. We must forgive just as God forgives us.

But that does not mean we let the criminals go free. Yes, we can pray that God forgive our enemy’s sins, but even so, a person must face the consequences of that sin - even if it is a sin that has been forgiven him or her. If you are convicted of murder or pedaphilia, you go to jail. The sin may be forgiven, but the punishment for the crime is still required by our society. This is not inconsistent. A boy may throw a rock and break a window - then ask the owner for forgiveness that is given… But even if he is forgiven he must still replace the window he broke. That is not vengeance or retribution, but justice."

I would agree with this Robert.

Again: “This is the cross we bear as christians. We must forgive just as God forgives us.”

So many who have done horrible things have learned that those they hurt had forgiven them and this one act of faith brought them to Christ Jesus. They simply could not imagine one good reason why their victim would have done this. Then it hits em, Christ comes alive to them.

God Bless
 
There are also several examples of those that held grudges even after the one who hurt them had died several years before. It was not until they were able to forgive that they could move on and have a normal healthy life.

God Bless
 
Or people who hold grudges against the descendants of those who they believe hurt their ancestors 160 years ago.:rolleyes:
 
**Yes, it is as if they cannot let go because by blaming someone else the problems of this world become someone else’s and not their own. This reminds me of a writing that I have come to adore. Here it is: **
Julian of Norwich asked Jesus why there was so much suffering in the world and why God allowed it. “I allowed the worst thing possible to happen,” Jesus told her. “I let humanity kill God–and I made it the best thing….There isn’t anything that I cannot transform into good.”

That explains the old axiom, Crux probat omnia, “the
Cross proves everything.” That is, the Cross (pain, suffering) is what transforms us. And yet most people do not know how to handle pain. Fear, anxiety, and negativity bang around inside them until they can’t stand it, and so they look for ways to eliminate it. One quick way to diminish pain is to seek blame: “Whose fault is it?”

That’s when the process of scapegoating begins–as evidenced, in our secular culture, by the high number of lawsuits. Where you do not have healthy spirituality, pain is always someone else’s fault.

The roots of this unhealthy thinking go deep, to the age-old notions of good and bad, worthy and unworthy. In such thinking, God and salvation are always found only in the pure, only in the good, only in the worthy. In such a dualistic world, there are always bad people to blame.

The revelation of Jesus, though, is that God is found in both the so-called good and the so-called bad. Most Christians worldwide haven’t gotten this message yet. It is too shocking. It is too disappointing. In the Incarnation, in the entering of human flesh, Jesus reveals that God is found in the actual–not in the idealized, the “pure, good, worthy.”

Pretend for a moment that all the good people are in your Church and all the bad people are “out there”. Your Church is saved and theirs is lost. How nice for you. How very convenient.

Everybody–all Churches–think this way, because it’s easy. It demands no transformation. You are saved because someone else is going to hell; you are smart because someone else is stupid.

Well, here’s another shocking truth: Jesus is not upset at sinners. The tax collectors and the prostitutes are getting into the kingdom of God before you (Mt 21:31), and Jesus said so to the people in the synagogue. Isn’t it obvious, now, why they killed Him? He broke down the distinctions that made their lives so clear and clean and nice.

The fact is, Jesus is only upset at people who do not think they are sinners. If I were to say that in half the churches in this country, I would have things thrown at me. And it is a disappointing statement. It says, No one else is your problem–not abortionists or homosexuals or your wife or the pope. You are your own problem. So many of us put all our energy into changing others, making them into Catholics, for example, but true spirituality is about keeping your feet to the fire. So you grow up. You become changed.

A large percentage of Christians, as I know them, don’t understand the distinction between theism and Christianity. A theist is one who asks, Is there a God? Of course, the answer is yes. Everybody wants a God, and in most of Western culture, the available god figure has been Jesus. In theism, God exists to solve problems, and if you are good and you honor God, God will oblige.

Christianity has a very different message. It says God does not really solve our problems. God reveals them, leads us to the solution, leads us through the solution, and–here is the mystery of the Body of Christ–includes us in the solution. And so we are transformed. In Christianity, sin and salvation are two sides of the same mystery. Salvation is sin overcome and used for better purposes. The question becomes, How do we use evil for good?
 
Mary offers an example at Calvary. She does not try to pull Jesus off the Cross or try to sue somebody, saying, “This should not happen! This is unjust!” Of course it is unjust. But what does it mean? What is the message of the Crucifixion? Christ offers a similar example. He hangs on the horns of the human dilemma and does not eliminate it. He just hangs there in a reality of pain and contradictions.

That is how transformation happens: by holding the tension instead of expelling it, holding it until it changes us.

Through the Cross, Jesus says you can love it all, even the enemy. There is no scapegoating. Everything, everyone belongs. There is only the broken and suffering Body of Christ eternally crucified, eternally resurrected: the human eternally crucified, eternally resurrected. What faith and surrender and courage it takes to hold the Cross and the Resurrection simultaneously, to let both simultaneously be true in you, in your body, in your marriage, in your children, in your neighborhood, in the Church.

Stop looking for some perfect institution or perfect religion. Stop looking for the perfect friend or partner, because you will be disappointed. He is not Mr. Universe. She is not Miss America. He or she is an ordinary person with faults and wonderful gifts at the same time. It is so hard–but so rewarding–to hold the gifts and the faults together!

There are those who insist that reality be consistent and logical, and those who insist that life is only chaos. Those are the two poles–perfect consistency or chaos. In fact, what Jesus did in the revelation of the Cross was tell us that life is neither of those poles. The pattern of reality is neither perfectly consistent nor perfectly chaos–it is cruciform. There is order and structure, but it is filled with contradictions. Once you learn to hold opposites together, you can find happiness. You hang in the middle with Christ, on the Cross, which bears the mystery of reality–at once fully human and fully divine.

Continued—
 
Meister Eckhart, the wonderful Dominican mystic, said that however great one’s suffering, God has suffered from it first. There is only one Cross, one Resurrection, captured in that microcosmic moment and person we call Jesus. We see it there; we understand it there. All the wars, the struggles, all resurrection and rebirth is about God. We are merely fragments in this huge flame of divine action.

Mystics and sinners understand this because, unlike the rest of us, they are not trying to create a universe they can understand and explain. They’ve let go, surrendered to a new identity.

Basically, there are two patterns of transformation into the mystery of God–the pattern of pain and the pattern of prayer. However, because most people do not surrender to real prayer until they suffer pain, you can say there is only one pattern. The fact is, normally we aren’t willing to give up ego control until we must, until pain forces us to do so. Nobody walks gracefully into the mystery of Crucifixion.

That is why the mystery of suffering is so central to transformation. The mystic lets go of the need to prove anything, protect anything, defend anything, be superior to anything, be anything. I am who I am who I am. I am who God is in me.

At that point in spiritual development, you are so grounded that you do not have to worry about your reputation anymore–you don’t have to worry about seeking blame or using other people to make yourself feel good or competing or winning. You are basically invulnerable.

The Franciscan word for this is poverty. The Carmelites call it nothingness; the Buddhists, emptiness. It says, I am naked underneath my clothes.

This experience feels like dying. If you do not have good spiritual wisdom while it’s happening, you will do everything you can to get back up. Yet, transformation is all about going down–into the pain, into the ordinary, into the physical, into the bloody, into the concrete. It’s about descent not ascent, not heightened states of consciousness. In other words, until we can see God where we did not want to see God, the world remains a secular, dualistic world.

After we are transformed, we can look back and see that we were guided through this process by Another who is choosing us, desiring us, and is infinitely wise and compassionate. That means you do not have to figure out all the patterns ahead of time. You do not have to be that smart, that good. You just have to surrender. Good spirituality is not about being good. It is about God being good. When you keep your eyes on the reality of God’s goodness, then God rubs off into you. You start being good almost in spite of yourself, but you do not even care about it anymore. You are not checking whether you are better than the next person. You have got something so much more wonderful to be excited about.

This is a difficult concept, and a long process. Most people do not get to this understanding until their 60s and 70s. I meet a lot of old nuns in motherhouses and infirmaries. All they keep saying–over and over–is that God is so good, God is so good. …end
 
For what little it is worth;

I am with R-Sd and the LDS on this one; it is the Duty of Christians to Forgive, regardless of the repentance of the “sinner”. It is plainly a consistent principle when looking at the total vaules espoused and generated by Christs teachings.

How can you truly say you are loving an enemy, as Christ requires, if you refuse to forgive them?

How can you claim to be perfect/compassionate as our Father in heaven is perfect/compassionate when you refuse to forgive an unrepentant enemy? Wasn’t the whole point of this requirement that we treat even those who despise, despitefully use, and even hate us as though we would treat our spouses, children, siblings, parents?

No, it seems quite clear that we must, as Christians, forgive all who sin against us, even if we do not hear them ask us for such (or even if they repent), as is also consistently demanded in the Pater Noster.

Is not the refusing to forgive an unrepentant sinner the very same principle denied by Jesus’ teachings regarding the invalidity of merely loving ones relatives and freinds while ‘hating’ their enemies? is not His condemnation of “what is holy about that, for even the pagans do the same” equally valid in regards to withholding forgiveness from the unrepentent?

Is it so foreign an idea that the unrepentant might be fully Justified in their “sin” against you, but your own lack of Charity blinds you to hold on to a wrong, that if you were actually following Christ you would see was actually a benefit to you? Can you not see why a Just God would condemn the unforgiving as easily than the unrepentant?

No, the only thing I cannot really work out is the “forgetting” part, which I don’t really see in the scriptures. Yes, I wholly agree that one cannot really have “forgiven” someone, while constantly using the past sin to coerse or otherwise continue to “hold it against” them. However, under the “wise as serpents/innocent as doves” principle, it does not seem to be Christ’s teaching that we “forget” the past (as many try and incorrectly use the principle), but that we be mindful and aware of the dangers while not browbeating the sinner with his past.

Perhaps it is this “forgetting” principle that must be applied differently to repentant and non-repentant sinners. Regardless, the “forgiveness” aspect must be universal; a Christian must Forgive all regardless of their “enemy’s” status or intent.

But, like I said, just my opinion, for what it might be worth.

Caritas Numquam Excidit
Inter Arma Caritas
 
But, like I said, just my opinion, for what it might be worth.
I can respect it
God Bless
 
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