On Predestination

[steph_86]

Hi everyone,

The teaching of predestination is a difficult mystery. It involves a consideration of an understanding of God’s Omniscience, Intellect, Will, and praemotio physica - that is, divine premotion -.

According to the Church’s teaching, God knows from all Eternity the names of the predestined, that is, the saved; and the names of the reprobate, that is, the damned. From His Eternal Reason, God knows infallibly who will persevere till the end and secure salvation, and who will not.

The difficulty in this problem, resides in how this is achieved. In the Dominican school of thought, God’s foreknowledge of future free acts is dependent upon decrees of His Will. For example, God knows from all Eternity that Mary will give Her Fiat at the Salutation of the Archangel Gabriel, because He has so decreed to move Her will infallibly.

The difficulty in this question resides in the fact of the existence of moral evil. If in His Omniscience, God decrees and moves the future Good acts of rational creatures, one wonders whether that involves also the possibility that God decrees and moves the future Evil acts of rational creatures. Obviously, as regards His Antecedent Will, God wishes as St Paul states in the First Epistle to Timothy “that all men be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4).

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ve written this before ad infinitum, but the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He started with an apology, we argued and talked, and at the end he gave a terrifying scream and disappeared.

During the proceedings however, at one point he remarked (with an attitude of fear) “I always was doomed! I really didn’t have any choice!” I was an atheist back then, and I argued back, saying “That can’t be right!” (in the moral sense). He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here!”

But later he admitted “I was WILLING!” (to do the cruel, stupid things that condemned him, and to keep doing them for 20 years without repenting. He just didn’t seem to care. And I’m pretty sure a Catholic uncle of mine warned him several times, but he just took no notice).

So where did God’s choice stop, and his will begin?

Somehow or other predestination and free will are mixed up, but don’t ask me to explain it.

CS Lewis put it this way in “The Great Divorce”

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

I suppose, in a sense, when my father had to appear at the judgement seat on the night of his death (which is what I think I witnessed), God said to him “… Thy will be done.”

My father himself admitted he’d been willing.

Was Hitler willing? Was Stalin willing? Was Pol Pot willing? Are abortionists willing? Are the terrorists of ISIS willing?

I think we’d have to admit that in every case they were or are. Whether they were “always doomed” is probably unprovable, but they were certainly willing.

 

[eschator83]

I don’t think it’s a mystery. Certainly, God can predestine anything and whomever He wants. But I believe He usually wants us to make our own decisions (choosing Him, obviously), and that means I think that God very seldom intervenes or predestines–mostly when we ask Him to in prayer.
It makes sense that because God is omniscent, He knows all things, past, present, and future, but that does not mean He hasn’t given most of us freedom of choice.
When you ask who was predestined, and who chose, you’re seeking to know the Mind of God, which doesn’t seem very likely.

 

[John_Martin]

I believe you are looking at eternity as if it were somehow like time, and eternal “now”, however, it is not really this way.
Here are some explanations from Aquinas:

The “now” of time is the same as regards its subject in the whole course of time, but it differs in aspect; for inasmuch as time corresponds to movement, its “now” corresponds to what is movable; and the thing movable has the same one subject in all time, but differs in aspect a being here and there; and such alteration is movement. Likewise the flow of the “now” as alternating in aspect is time. But eternity remains the same according to both subject and aspect; and hence eternity is not the same as the “now” of time.

Two things are to be considered in time: time itself, which is successive; and the “now” of time, which is imperfect. Hence the expression “simultaneously-whole” is used to remove the idea of time, and the word “perfect” is used to exclude the “now” of time.

I answer that, As we attain to the knowledge of simple things by way of compound things, so must we reach to the knowledge of eternity by means of time, which is nothing but the numbering of movement by “before” and “after.” For since succession occurs in every movement, and one part comes after another, the fact that we reckon before and after in movement, makes us apprehend time, which is nothing else but the measure of before and after in movement. Now in a thing bereft of movement, which is always the same, there is no before or after. As therefore the idea of time consists in the numbering of before and after in movement; so likewise in the apprehension of the uniformity of what is outside of movement, consists the idea of eternity.
Further, those things are said to be measured by time which have a beginning and an end in time, because in everything which is moved there is a beginning, and there is an end. But as whatever is wholly immutable can have no succession, so it has no beginning, and no end.
Thus eternity is known from two sources: first, because what is eternal is interminable—that is, has no beginning nor end (that is, no term either way); secondly, because eternity has no succession, being simultaneously whole.

“From Eternity” does not mean “before the world and time began”. “From eternity” means God IS and Knowing in his being that a Contingent world of time and space and free will is created by him, actualizes itself contingently and has results contingently. And of these results of contingency this set of people is in heaven and this set of people do not wish to be in heaven. God knows in his eternity the people who choose heaven and hell by their contingent and free desire.

I wish I had a better way to explain it, but there is no predestination in the way described. Foreknowledge is a human term, a temporal term. There is no “foreknowledge” in God, because there is not “beFORE” in Him, nor is there “after”, nor is there “now”. God is “simultaneously whole”.

 

[fhansen]

Hi everyone,

The teaching of predestination is a difficult mystery. It involves a consideration of an understanding of God’s Omniscience, Intellect, Will, and praemotio physica - that is, divine premotion -.

According to the Church’s teaching, God knows from all Eternity the names of the predestined, that is, the saved; and the names of the reprobate, that is, the damned. From His Eternal Reason, God knows infallibly who will persevere till the end and secure salvation, and who will not.

The difficulty in this problem, resides in how this is achieved. In the Dominican school of thought, God’s foreknowledge of future free acts is dependent upon decrees of His Will. For example, God knows from all Eternity that Mary will give Her Fiat at the Salutation of the Archangel Gabriel, because He has so decreed to move Her will infallibly.

The difficulty in this question resides in the fact of the existence of moral evil. If in His Omniscience, God decrees and moves the future Good acts of rational creatures, one wonders whether that involves also the possibility that God decrees and moves the future Evil acts of rational creatures. Obviously, as regards His Antecedent Will, God wishes as St Paul states in the First Epistle to Timothy “that all men be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4).

Catholicism does not teach strict predestinationism. Rather, as the Church maintains, our wills are never uninvolved:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

 

[Nelka]

I think God predestines everybody to Heaven like putting everybody on a train but some people choose to get off.

God is Just not cruel, he would not condemn somebody to Hell before they had a chance to believe in Him and lead a good life.

God is fair.

 

[oldcelt]

Catholicism does not teach strict predestinationism. Rather, as the Church maintains, our wills are never uninvolved:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

The Church may teach this, but it is a complete cop-out. Omniscience cannot be avoided, twisted or minimized. If the Christian God is truly omniscient…then he is complicit in the condemnation of every soul in hell.
Fortunately, I no longer believe any of it…I have more respect for the creator.

 

[tonyrey]

The Church may teach this, but it is a complete cop-out. Omniscience cannot be avoided, twisted or minimized. If the Christian God is truly omniscient…then he is complicit in the condemnation of every soul in hell.
Fortunately, I no longer believe any of it…I have more respect for the creator.

A creator who ignored and neglected his creatures would be the prime candidate for hell - the **self-inflicted **isolation of those who condemn themselves to misery as a result of their utter selfishness and indifference to the suffering of others.

 

[tonyrey]

I think God predestines everybody to Heaven like putting everybody on a train but some people choose to get off.

God is Just not cruel, he would not condemn somebody to Hell before they had a chance to believe in Him and lead a good life.

God is fair.

God condemns no one. The damned condemn themselves!

 

[belorg]

A creator who ignored and neglected his creatures would be the prime candidate for hell - the **self-inflicted **isolation of those who condemn themselves to misery as a result of their utter selfishness and indifference to the suffering of others.

A timeless creator cannot interfere in the lives of his creatures, so “ignoring” and “neglecting” them is not His choice, it is a logical consequence of God’s alleged immutability.

 

[fhansen]

The Church may teach this, but it is a complete cop-out. Omniscience cannot be avoided, twisted or minimized. If the Christian God is truly omniscient…then he is complicit in the condemnation of every soul in hell.
Fortunately, I no longer believe any of it…I have more respect for the creator.

I see no reason why a creator cannot be omniscient and grant free will. If the concept of free will has any validity at all,* if humans are morally responsible beings, *IOWs, acknowledged by ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, then we simply don’t have the right to say, “God made me do it” regardless of whether or not we believe Him to be omniscient. His complicity, as creator, is only an indirect one, or else free will would be rendered impossible; humans are responsible for what they do. In the end, God deems that such a radical freedom is worth it; we’re to decide whether to use it for better or for worse, and none of us are forced to sin-or keep sinning.

 

[lmelahn]

Hi everyone,

The teaching of predestination is a difficult mystery. It involves a consideration of an understanding of God’s Omniscience, Intellect, Will, and praemotio physica - that is, divine premotion -.

According to the Church’s teaching, God knows from all Eternity the names of the predestined, that is, the saved; and the names of the reprobate, that is, the damned. From His Eternal Reason, God knows infallibly who will persevere till the end and secure salvation, and who will not.

The difficulty in this problem, resides in how this is achieved. In the Dominican school of thought, God’s foreknowledge of future free acts is dependent upon decrees of His Will. For example, God knows from all Eternity that Mary will give Her Fiat at the Salutation of the Archangel Gabriel, because He has so decreed to move Her will infallibly.

The difficulty in this question resides in the fact of the existence of moral evil. If in His Omniscience, God decrees and moves the future Good acts of rational creatures, one wonders whether that involves also the possibility that God decrees and moves the future Evil acts of rational creatures. Obviously, as regards His Antecedent Will, God wishes as St Paul states in the First Epistle to Timothy “that all men be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4).

The problem you are raising is essentially that of the De auxiliis controversy, regarding how God applies actual graces, and whether those graces lead inevitably to the salvation of the ones who receive them.

The theory of praemotio physica was proposed by the Dominican Domingo Báñez, and basically says that every supernaturally good act must come about by a divine action: an actual grace (or auxilium). Since God’s actions are always efficacious, argues Báñez, if God gives someone all the graces he needs to be saved, salvation must inevitably follow.

The problem with Báñez’ theory is that it seems to leave little room for human freedom: God’s grace works, and the human will seems obliged to follow it. It also leaves the uncomfortable impression that God for some reason refrains to give the necessary actual graces to certain people, allowing them to be condemned.

I should point out that Báñez insisted that his theory safeguarded human freedom: he would say that somehow or other the human will is always in agreement, so to speak, with the graces that it receives. (God never forces a grace against our will.) Nevertheless, God sends those graces without regard to our future merits (ante praevia merita).

Reacting against Báñez’ theory, a Jesuit named Luis de Molina came up with a different theory: he started out by presupposing that man can freely accept or reject the offer of grace. God sends (in his terminology) “sufficient” grace, which only becomes “efficacious” when man gives the assent of the will.

This position seems to resolve the problem of human freedom, but it leaves open the issue of God’s divine foreknowledge: how is it possible for Him to know who is saved and condemned from all eternity? In answer, de Molina said that God sends graces depending on His foreknowledge of whether they will be used well or not: post praevia merita.

This idea seems to open a quandary: God can know all the things that He creates by what Aquinas called the “knowledge of vision” (scientia visionis); He knows what He could create but hasn’t by the “knowledge of simple intelligence” (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). However, what man could do freely in the future seems to be in a third category: the so-called “future contingents.” This type of Divine Knowledge de Molina called scientia media (for which he was severely criticized by the Dominicans).

The Church has never taken sides on this issue. What do I think about it? I think both Báñez and de Molina essentially have it wrong, because they were both assuming that the only kind of motion that God can produce in man’s soul is an action. (Without going into details, both of them were using a metaphysical system that did not take into account the intrinsic capacity of all beings to act and be real causes in the world. In their conception, practically, no being can act without a special motion from God.)

In my opinion, the question is resolved by noting that, although God can certainly inspire actions, more often His actual graces provide us with the capacity to act a certain way. He gives that capacity efficaciously, but the exercise is up to us.

(For example, suppose God gives someone who has fallen from the state of grace an inspiration to repent and go to confession. Before the man received that grace, repentance was impossible. Now that he has received the grace, he has the capacity to repent, but whether he actually follows through or not is up to him.)

In my opinion, the question of divine foreknowledge was always a red herring. For God, there is no such thing as a future; all things are present to Him. There is no need, therefore, for a scientia media: He sees our free decisions with scientia visionis.

This proposal safeguards all three aspects: the efficacy of God’s action, human freedom, and Divine Foreknowledge.

 

[Seraphim73]

I think sometimes people look at this question from a slightly skewed perspective. It’s not that God allows us our free will or that He won’t interfere with it. God created us the only way possible, in His image and likeness. And that means we really are free and that God can’t impose His will on us. In fact if God could impose His will then hell would be horribly cruel. We don’t do the things we do because God knows or wills that we do those things, He knows it because that’s what we will choose. We still have an absolutely free choice in everything.

 

[oldcelt]

I see no reason why a creator cannot be omniscient and grant free will. If the concept of free will has any validity at all,* if humans are morally responsible beings, *IOWs, acknowledged by ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, then we simply don’t have the right to say, “God made me do it” regardless of whether or not we believe Him to be omniscient. His complicity, as creator, is only an indirect one, or else free will would be rendered impossible; humans are responsible for what they do. In the end, God deems that such a radical freedom is worth it; we’re to decide whether to use it for better or for worse, and none of us are forced to sin-or keep sinning.

No creature can be born free when their creator already knows their outcome. It is a logical impossibility. The Christian God has foreknowledge according to all teaching…with knowledge, comes responsibility.
It really is that simple.

 

[oldcelt]

I think sometimes people look at this question from a slightly skewed perspective. It’s not that God allows us our free will or that He won’t interfere with it. God created us the only way possible, in His image and likeness. And that means we really are free and that God can’t impose His will on us. In fact if God could impose His will then hell would be horribly cruel. We don’t do the things we do because God knows or wills that we do those things, He knows it because that’s what we will choose. We still have an absolutely free choice in everything.

I agree that we are free, but for quite a different reason. We are free because we are a consequence of the creator’s work…not his direct creation. However, if God cannot impose His will, as you say, then what is the purpose of prayer? You have described something very close to the Deist creator.

 

[Seraphim73]

I agree that we are free, but for quite a different reason. We are free because we are a consequence of the creator’s work…not his direct creation. However, if God cannot impose His will, as you say, then what is the purpose of prayer? You have described something very close to the Deist creator.

We pray that God will guide us, to open ourselves to His will and we pray for others and we pray to have communion with God. If fact Scripture teaches quite clearly that we shouldn’t pray for anything that we haven’t already received. And what we pray actually does makes a difference in God’s providential plans. God already knows what we are going to pray for before we do it, but if we did not pray God could not know. He has foreknowledge of everything, but it’s not really even foreknowledge, it’s just knowledge, because with God there is no such thing as before or after.

I would also add that God cannot force our will but He can and does work though us. That is especially the case if we seek Him and His will. He can also persuade through various means. Of course that is all contingent on us and our choice. Again our free will directly affects God’s divine plan because it is our free choices that determine our destiny in regards to salvation. God knows who will choose Him so He persuades and corrects and helps those He knows will make that choice. If He knows we will not choose Him He does not persuade and does not pressure. Both of those are completely contingent on our free choices and God’s knowledge of those choices.

 

[fhansen]

No creature can be born free when their creator already knows their outcome. It is a logical impossibility. The Christian God has foreknowledge according to all teaching…with knowledge, comes responsibility.
It really is that simple.

alright, then, let’s free all the prisoners, never hold anyonme accountable; humans are morally irresponsible imbeciles who should in no way have to answer to anyone for their actions.

 

[oldcelt]

alright, then, let’s free all the prisoners, never hold anyonme accountable; humans are morally irresponsible imbeciles who should in no way have to answer to anyone for their actions.

Quite a different conversation…since none of us are omniscient or at the level of a creator…don’t ya think? We are guarding our world because we are on our own…again…quite simple.

 

[oldcelt]

We pray that God will guide us, to open ourselves to His will and we pray for others and we pray to have communion with God. If fact Scripture teaches quite clearly that we shouldn’t pray for anything that we haven’t already received. And what we pray actually does makes a difference in God’s providential plans. God already knows what we are going to pray for before we do it, but if we did not pray God could not know. He has foreknowledge of everything, but it’s not really even foreknowledge, it’s just knowledge, because with God there is no such thing as before or after.

I would also add that God cannot force our will but He can and does work though us. That is especially the case if we seek Him and His will. He can also persuade through various means. Of course that is all contingent on us and our choice. Again our free will directly affects God’s divine plan because it is our free choices that determine our destiny in regards to salvation. God knows who will choose Him so He persuades and corrects and helps those He knows will make that choice. If He knows we will not choose Him He does not persuade and does not pressure. Both of those are completely contingent on our free choices and God’s knowledge of those choices.

Providential plans…but can’t force our will? I would suggest a reexamination of that duality.

 

[Seraphim73]

Providential plans…but can’t force our will? I would suggest a reexamination of that duality.

Cardinal Newman said theology is a saying and an unsaying to a positive effect. But there is no duality here. God is free and He made us free in His image and likeness.