On the decline in the US?

[mardukm]

Maronites and Chaldeans originate in countries that are still experiencing immigration to the United States. They are just “behind the curve”.

The mathematics would seem to indicate continued decline in numbers for Eastern Catholics. The groups are very small in relation to the entire Catholic Church, and intermarriage between Latins and Eastern Catholics seems to be more likely than not.

Since the EC’s are so small, they have relatively few churches. The chance of a Latin-Eastern couple living near one is relatively small. Some entire states have exactly zero EC churches.

The whole phenomena is likely to continue to accelerate as Americans become more affluent and less attached to the insular EC (and other ethnic) communities that were a lot more prevalent a hundred years ago.

I don’t know why Easterns and Orientals who are forced to attend a Latin parish do not register themselves AS Easterns or Orientals - at least.

Do we have any Easterns or Orientals here who are enrolled in a Latin parish who have asked for accomodations - such as permission to have their toddler have communion, or to have triple immersion baptisms, etc.? Or do you just do as the Romans do because you are in Rome (you know what I mean )? I think a bishop is canonically obligated to provide for such accomodations.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Madaglan]

I don’t know why Easterns and Orientals who are forced to attend a Latin parish do not register themselves AS Easterns or Orientals.

Perhaps they see themselves more as simply “Catholic” than specifically Eastern, Oriental or Latin. In which case, registering as such would not matter so much to them. Just a thought.

 

[mardukm]

Perhaps they see themselves more as simply “Catholic” than specifically Eastern, Oriental or Latin. In which case, registering as such would not matter so much to them. Just a thought.

That’s a good point. I guess the mere awareness of the plight of Easterns and Orientals in the U.S. is a major part in recognizing the necessity of keeping one’s unique identity alive, even in a Latin parish.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Madaglan]

I don’t know why Easterns and Orientals who are forced to attend a Latin parish do not register themselves AS Easterns or Orientals - at least.

Do we have any Easterns or Orientals here who are enrolled in a Latin parish who have asked for accomodations - such as permission to have their toddler have communion, or to have triple immersion baptisms, etc.? Or do you just do as the Romans do because you are in Rome (you know what I mean )? I think a bishop is canonically obligated to provide for such accomodations.

Blessings,
Marduk

In regards to communion, it would make sense that the bishop make accommodations. I’m thinking how it would impress on the parish as a whole. Say it were an infant instead of a toddler. Would the other mothers, not knowing the reason, then want their infants to receive communion? Also, there is the question of both species and how they are received by the communicant. Does one use intinction, or does one go by Latin theology that teaches both Body and Blood are received in the one specie? Proper communication would be key.

I would think that, for baptism, a one-time sacrament, it would first be advisable to contact an Eastern Catholic priest. If this does not work out, Latin Catholic baptism is acceptable. I don’t see triple immersion as posing any real problem.

 

[mardukm]

I would think that, for baptism, a one-time sacrament, it would first be advisable to contact an Eastern Catholic priest. If this does not work out, Latin Catholic baptism is acceptable. I don’t see triple immersion as posing any real problem.

Thanks for your responses, brother. This portion of your response got me thinking.

Does a Latin priest have canonical authority to perform a triple immersion baptism for Eastern/Oriental congregants who request it for their baby, or is this only granted by special dispensation from the bishop? Anybody?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Madaglan]

Thanks for your responses, brother. This portion of your response got me thinking.

Does a Latin priest have canonical authority to perform a triple immersion baptism for Eastern/Oriental congregants who request it for their baby, or is this only granted by special dispensation from the bishop? Anybody?

Blessings,
Marduk

No problem. The Rituale Romanum, in the section Rite of Baptism for Children, allows for threefold immersion baptism where it is the custom.

I believe the revised Rite retains this allowance.

I don’t think it would take any more than a quick phone call to the bishop.

 

[ziapueblo]

What is triple immersion? Do most Eastern Catholic Church’s baptize their infants/children by triple immersion?

At my parish, I’m Latin-Rite, we have a full immersion font. I have not yet seen an infant fully immersed, but have seen adults baptized by full immersion.

Thanks and God bless,
ZP

 

[Addai]

Since the EC’s are so small, they have relatively few churches. The chance of a Latin-Eastern couple living near one is relatively small. Some entire states have exactly zero EC churches.

The whole phenomena is likely to continue to accelerate as Americans become more affluent and less attached to the insular EC (and other ethnic) communities that were a lot more prevalent a hundred years ago.

I am coming to terms with that myself. I have looked at a city that I am looking at moving to in the years ahead and I think I may end up joining a parish there that has a Tridentine mass.

stannsparish.org/

I do see some hope though…

1. One phenomenon I’ve seen among Postmodern Protestants I’ve talked to is a longing for tradition (I’ve known Protestants who have gone out of their way to take up Catholic devotions, traditions etc. because they see something deeply missing in their own spiritual lives).
2. And in looking at the culture itself I see that also as theme in recent years. And of course at different times I’ve seen some emphasis on holding onto ones ethnic identity (especially with folks into “multiculturalism” etc.).
3. I also think it might be possible to ride the coat tails of the Renaissance of Eastern Orthodoxy in this country if Eastern Catholics are willing to try. (I’m doubtful this will happen but if ECs had some James Likoudis type folks out there to match the Fr. Peter Quilquists I think its very possible)
4. similar to point 1 & 3 Coming out of the Protestant movement. There is a lot of burn out with various movements that come around the bend. “Seeker Sensative”, “Prayer of Jabez”, “Word of Faith”, the aerobic like work outs that happen at Charismatic worship meetings. Some of the questionable doctrine and extreme practices eventually drive some people to

"Stand at the crossroads and look–
ask for the ancient paths.
Ask where the good way is,
and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls. . .

(Jeremiah 5:30)

 

[Aramis]

No problem. The Rituale Romanum, in the section Rite of Baptism for Children, allows for threefold immersion baptism where it is the custom.

I believe the revised Rite retains this allowance.

I don’t think it would take any more than a quick phone call to the bishop.

I’ve seen it done for Romans when the font is big enough for immersion rather than pouring.

 

[The_Prodigal]

No problem. The Rituale Romanum, in the section Rite of Baptism for Children, allows for threefold immersion baptism where it is the custom.

I believe the revised Rite retains this allowance.

I don’t think it would take any more than a quick phone call to the bishop.

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate’s head.

Given this language from the CCC, (here), it would surprise me if the bishop’s special permission would be necessary at all.

 

[theweeper]

ok so why the aversion to latinizations? it is bound to happen as cultures meld, so to speak. isnt it so that different rites from different cultures have truly ancient liturgies that developed and borrowed from one another in the early days. why not now?

 

[Diak]

ok so why the aversion to latinizations?

It is one thing when liturgies have ancestral connections, such as a similarity in the basic structure (Preparation Rites, Liturgy of the Word, Anaphora, Communion/Post-Communion, Dismissal, etc.) and no one debates the ontological similarities of all liturgical traditions.

But it is quite another thing entirely when the legitimately received tradition of a particular ritual Church is abandoned for something that was never part of that tradition. Besides, Rome and our own bishops are directing us away from these “latinizations”.