On women monthly 'uncleanness'

[Batfink]

Only on the ‘natural’ bit.
Can we say that something is really natural unless it is as God made it? I mean Adam and Eve were not like that when they were made. Perhaps Jews kept in sight the fact that our nature is a ‘wounded’ nature?

I’m going to charitably assume that you’re serious here and answer you as such. Please bear in mind that if you aired such views in a lot of other places, you would not receive as open a hearing.

a) The fact that some other primates menstruate and other zoological evidence indicates that menstruation is older than humans, therefore there is no reason to physically connect menstruation/lochia discharge with the Fall. I.e., I contend that Eve **was **‘like that’ when she was made.

b) There is no need, theologically, to place menstruation in opposition to the prelapsarian idyll. I have already stated, as have others, that menstruation is not a result of sin. It is not on a par with e.g. pain in childbirth. The menstrual cycle is a part of how God designed our bodies to work.

In short, yes: periods are natural!

 

[meltzerboy]

A bit of context.

There is a common Traditional Jewish prayer where a **male worshiper thanks God for not making him a woman. ** There is no similar prayer where a female worshiper thanks God for not making her a man, or for making her a woman (source: jewfaq.org/women.htm).

However, I believe this prayer has fallen into disuse except in Ultra-Orthodox communities.

Actually, there is a similar prayer for women: Thank you, G-d, for making me according to Your will." Although this may sound weaker and even a concession to an inferior social role, one of its interpretations is that G-d has made women with the powers of mercy and compassion that most men may lack. The prayer for men is “Thank you, G-d, for not making me a gentile, a slave, or a woman.” There are several interpretations, one of which is historically based as a symbol of Jews’ social identity compared to other peoples. But the most common interpretation is that male Jews are thanking G-d for bestowing upon them the additional responsibility of keeping all (or most) of the 613 commandments, some of which women are not responsible for. The same absence of responsibility would apply to gentiles, who are required only to follow the Noahide Law consisting of seven commandments, as well as slaves. Neither group, however, is thought of as inferior. (In fact, the notion of Jews as the Chosen People is not regarded as based on any intrinsic merit on their part, but rather on G-d’s grace to bear the responsibility.) In other words, the prayer is NOT interpreted by Haredi Jews (ultra-Orthodox is regarded as a pejorative term; in fact, even the term Orthodox is frowned upon: Torah Jews is preferred) as a put-down of women, gentiles, or slaves. The prayer is traditionally recited by these Torah Jews, although I’m sure there are others of Torah Judaism (Modern Orthodox or traditional Orthodox) who might also recite it. Many Conservative Jews and probably most Reform Jews do not say the prayer. Also, while this is part of the synagogue liturgy of Ashkenazi Jews (and said, among other morning prayers, at home), it is not part of the Sephardic Jewish liturgy.

 

[Holly3278]

It is natural but there are times when a woman doesn’t have one like if she is pregnant or if she has some sort of disorder.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Actually, there is a similar prayer for women: Thank you, G-d, for making me according to Your will." Although this may sound weaker and even a concession to an inferior social role, one of its interpretations is that G-d has made women with the powers of mercy and compassion that most men may lack. The prayer for men is “Thank you, G-d, for not making me a gentile, a slave, or a woman.” There are several interpretations, one of which is historically based as a symbol of Jews’ social identity compared to other peoples. But the most common interpretation is that male Jews are thanking G-d for bestowing upon them the additional responsibility of keeping all (or most) of the 613 commandments, some of which women are not responsible for. The same absence of responsibility would apply to gentiles, who are required only to follow the Noahide Law consisting of seven commandments, as well as slaves. Neither group, however, is thought of as inferior. (In fact, the notion of Jews as the Chosen People is not regarded as based on any intrinsic merit on their part, but rather on G-d’s grace to bear the responsibility.) In other words, the prayer is NOT interpreted by Haredi Jews (ultra-Orthodox is regarded as a pejorative term; in fact, even the term Orthodox is frowned upon: Torah Jews is preferred) as a put-down of women, gentiles, or slaves. The prayer is traditionally recited by these Torah Jews, although I’m sure there are others of Torah Judaism (Modern Orthodox or traditional Orthodox) who might also recite it. Many Conservative Jews and probably most Reform Jews do not say the prayer. Also, while this is part of the synagogue liturgy of Ashkenazi Jews (and said, among other morning prayers, at home), it is not part of the Sephardic Jewish liturgy.

The Old Testament, as well as the behavior of Ultra-Orthodox Jews in modern day Israel, makes it clear that traditionally male Jews** have** looked down on gentiles, slaves, and women.

Moreover, the female prayer you mention does sound rather weak and concessionary. That’s why I didn’t bother bringing it up (even though I was already aware of it).

 

[karow]

No it is not about female body shaming. Actually Leviticus mentions other body dischrge and includes males as well.

The original post mentions nothing about Leviticus and was worded in a way that could have lead posters down the shaming road with the question about the naturalness of menstruation. Just sayin’…

 

[meltzerboy]

The Old Testament, as well as the behavior of Ultra-Orthodox Jews in modern day Israel, makes it clear that traditionally male Jews** have** looked down on gentiles, slaves, and women.

Moreover, the female prayer you mention does sound rather weak and concessionary. That’s why I didn’t bother bringing it up (even though I was already aware of it).

I don’t want to derail the thread by discussing this issue with you here. If you wish to PM me, we can discuss it further. All I will say here is that it may appear to look that way to an outside observer, just as Catholicism (and other religions) appear to look a certain way to people who are not part of the religion.

 

[nablaise]

The original post mentions nothing about Leviticus and was worded in a way that could have lead posters down the shaming road with the question about the naturalness of menstruation. Just sayin’…

yes. I apologize for that.

 

[nablaise]

I’m going to charitably assume that you’re serious here and answer you as such. Please bear in mind that if you aired such views in a lot of other places, you would not receive as open a hearing.

a) The fact that some other primates menstruate and other zoological evidence indicates that menstruation is older than humans, therefore there is no reason to physically connect menstruation/lochia discharge with the Fall. I.e., I contend that Eve was ‘like that’ when she was made.

b) There is no need, theologically, to place menstruation in opposition to the prelapsarian idyll. I have already stated, as have others, that menstruation is not a result of sin. It is not on a par with e.g. pain in childbirth. The menstrual cycle is a part of how God designed our bodies to work.

In short, yes: periods are natural!

I am not sure if I got you correctly.
I agree that God designed the cycles in our female body. But I don’t think He made the body to let blood flow outside naturally. The lady who wrote the article made a better articulation of what I am trying to say. Involuntary flow of body liquids is part of our wounded nature but not that of the original one before the Fall.

About the other animals being there before man, it may not mean that they had periods before man…
also the story of Genesis 2 allows me to consider this.
Naming the animals… Naming may not mean ‘identifying’ but ‘deciding the fate of’.
Ex. When scientists are making something or altering a thing for a particular purpose, they are naming or renaming.

It seems to me that animals started living a different life after accountering mankind and getting named by him. Also mankind was different before the deep sleep of Adam… I am sure there is a parallel between the sleep of Adam and the sleep of Jesus on the Cross as well as Jesus mentioning pradise being on the other side of the Cross.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I don’t want to derail the thread by discussing this issue with you here. If you wish to PM me, we can discuss it further. All I will say here is that it may appear to look that way to an outside observer, just as Catholicism (and other religions) appear to look a certain way to people who are not part of the religion.

You can use that kind of rational to excuse any behavior that looks bad to outsiders.

I was part of an apocalypse cult known as the Church Universal and Triumphant as a child.

And as a former cult member let me tell you this:
Sometimes the behavior a religion engages in is as bad (or even worse) than it appears on the surface.

I don’t take it seriously when those who practice Sharia Law claim that they really respect women and have their best interests at heart. Nor do I think that I should apply a higher standard to groups that employ similar practices.

 

[meltzerboy]

You can use that kind of rational to excuse any behavior that looks bad to outsiders.

I was part of an apocalypse cult known as the Church Universal and Triumphant as a child.

And as a former cult member let me tell you this:
Sometimes the behavior a religion engages in is as bad (or even worse) than it appears on the surface.

I don’t take it seriously when those who practice Sharia Law claim that they really respect women and have their best interests at heart. Nor do I think that I should apply a higher standard to groups that employ similar practices.

I can’t speak for Islam and Sharia Law for lack of sufficient knowledge. But I can say that, in both theory and practice, Judaism does NOT discriminate against women. That doesn’t mean there are not some Jews who misinterpret or distort the religion’s core principles, just as in other religions. Also, unless you regard ALL religions as cults, based perhaps on your own unfortunate experience, Judaism is not a cult. If you haven’t already done so, I would suggest you study Judaism to gain a broader perspective. A classic book on the subject (only from the “Orthodox” viewpoint, however) is called “To Be a Jew.” I don’t recall the author’s name; perhaps Donin.

 

[Denise1957]

You can use that kind of rational to excuse any behavior that looks bad to outsiders.

I was part of an apocalypse cult known as the Church Universal and Triumphant as a child.

And as a former cult member let me tell you this:
Sometimes the behavior a religion engages in is as bad (or even worse) than it appears on the surface.

I don’t take it seriously when those who practice Sharia Law claim that they really respect women and have their best interests at heart. Nor do I think that I should apply a higher standard to groups that employ similar practices.

I don’t want to take this thread off track, but is the cult that you belonged to as a child the one founded by Elizabeth Clare Prophet? My grandmother belonged to the Summit Lighthouse for 40 years.

If this is the same group that you belonged to, I agree that it is a cult. Most definately.

 

[5Loaves]

You might find interesting this Ritual Impurity article by Sister Vassa Larin. Sister Vassa is Russian Orthodox. She is a brilliant scholar. She did her graduate work with Fr. Archimandrite Robert F Taft, S.J, one of the great liturgical scholars of our time.