Once Saved Always Saved with a Twist?

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Nelka

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I have a Protestant friend who agrees with the works part of salvation but also believes in OSAS.

He believes that when he was “saved”, God gave him what is necessary to perform works and that anyone who is “saved” is unable to not perform works.

I told him that we all have a choice whether to be nice or not and that it isn’t something forced into us so we couldn’t possibly be uncharitable.

I’m glad he believes the works part rather than the murder someone, don’t repent and still go straight to Heaven when you die but he still says the you couldn’t have been truly saved then part.

Where do I go from here?

He is always interested in the Catholic side of things and never tells me I “worship” Mary.

Thanks.
 
“You can see my faith from my works” — James

Maybe tell your friend: which one do you prefer: faith only and do whatever, or faith and showing people we have faith by living out our faith (good works) with fear of His judgment?

With a trembling feet I am showing Thou I love Thou by loving others and obeying Thou. Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy 😃

Ah come on…faith and works cannot be separated.

Through faith we do good works? The fact is, lot of people swearing that they have faith in God, only have faith in Him, without producing good fruits
 
Sounds a lot like what we believe as Catholics.

We believe we are saved at Baptism and are given graces necessary to fullfill being good…works.
We believe once we are saved at Baptims that we are always saved. Unless we seriously sin in which case we are no longer saved.

But we have something more whereby Jesus left us that we may restore our salvation if lost. And that is thru reconciliation, so that we are once again saved.

So maybe he is rather close to our belief.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
… He believes that when he was “saved”, God gave him what is necessary to perform works and that anyone who is “saved” is unable to not perform works…
Your friend is wise.

I once came across something in the Catechism related to this. It is a paradox. In what sense are we free to do evil when we are governed by charity in our hearts? I can’t find the passage at the moment. If we are holy, charity predisposes us to do good works, even so strongly that we can only choose good.

In my own life, I see this in some areas. For example, I cannot steal. Nope. No way. Not gonna happen. But I am weak in other areas.
 
I have a Protestant friend who agrees with the works part of salvation but also believes in OSAS.

He believes that when he was “saved”, God gave him what is necessary to perform works and that anyone who is “saved” is unable to not perform works.

I told him that we all have a choice whether to be nice or not and that it isn’t something forced into us so we couldn’t possibly be uncharitable.

I’m glad he believes the works part rather than the murder someone, don’t repent and still go straight to Heaven when you die but he still says the you couldn’t have been truly saved then part.

Where do I go from here?

He is always interested in the Catholic side of things and never tells me I “worship” Mary.

Thanks.
Sounds like he is almost Catholic already…😃

Ask him when the “once saved” aspect kicks in and how one can know for sure that he - or his neighbor - is “truly saved”?

Catholics believe that once you are saved you will remain saved…we just don’t believe that you can know for certain if you are “truly saved” until judgment. We can have confidence…but not certainty.

Just a thought

Peace
James
 
I have a Protestant friend who agrees with the works part of salvation but also believes in OSAS.

He believes that when he was “saved”, God gave him what is necessary to perform works and that anyone who is “saved” is unable to not perform works.

I told him that we all have a choice whether to be nice or not and that it isn’t something forced into us so we couldn’t possibly be uncharitable.

I’m glad he believes the works part rather than the murder someone, don’t repent and still go straight to Heaven when you die but he still says the you couldn’t have been truly saved then part.

Where do I go from here?

He is always interested in the Catholic side of things and never tells me I “worship” Mary.

Thanks.
I am always fascinated about the OSAS posts here on CAF.
I agree that not all Protestant churches teach the same thing, I would like to know which groups teach that after being “saved” you can murder someone and still go to heaven?
Maybe my [protestant] church is the exception, because we are taught that a christian can “backslide”…and if you die in your sin you go to hell.
But are there specific protestant groups that that teach that no matter what you do after baptism you go to heaven?
 
I am always fascinated about the OSAS posts here on CAF.
I agree that not all Protestant churches teach the same thing, I would like to know which groups teach that after being “saved” you can murder someone and still go to heaven?
Maybe my [protestant] church is the exception, because we are taught that a christian can “backslide”…and if you die in your sin you go to hell.
But are there specific protestant groups that that teach that no matter what you do after baptism you go to heaven?
I was in a URC (supporting someone with learning difficulties) and the preacher was saying that we don’t have to be good or kind or nice or anything like that, whatever we do we are guaranteed our place in Heaven and it cannot be lost. I felt sick.

When I mention works to some Protestants they call me Arminianist.

I respect my friend because he doesn’t judge me, too many Protestants tell me I worship Mary and the Catholic Church teaches it.

His opinion of Luther is different to mine though. 😃
 
I am always fascinated about the OSAS posts here on CAF.
I agree that not all Protestant churches teach the same thing, I would like to know which groups teach that after being “saved” you can murder someone and still go to heaven?
Maybe my [protestant] church is the exception, because we are taught that a christian can “backslide”…and if you die in your sin you go to hell.
But are there specific protestant groups that that teach that no matter what you do after baptism you go to heaven?
I really do not believe that there are people who believe in OSAS!

Oh wait the minute… One of my uncles actually believed in OSAS…until he dreamed that he met Jesus who turned into Lucifer when he hugged Him. Scary! After this dream of him, my cousin told me that he was completely lost and had relationship with a Muslim. I dont know what happens to him now because he lives abroad.

I really feel sorry for those who believe in OSAS, if such people exist (other than my uncle), though
 
Although I don’t know all of the facets of what he believes, but it sounds like he may be a Calvinist, or at least influenced by some of the Reformed beliefs. Calvinists do believe that works are ‘part of salvation’ in that the ‘saved person’ will do good works. They use phrases like ‘salvation is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone’ hence, to be ‘saved’ does not require any works to initiate or maintain – or anything except ‘fiducial faith’ (this is more than mere belief, but rather trust and confidence in Christ alone for salvation. However, this does not equate to the ‘Faith, Hope and Charity’ that we Catholics believe is necessary to be in a state of grace), but once you are ‘saved’ you proceed to do good works (because you have been regenerated) and will indeed persevere unto the end of your life in both faith and at least some good works because of election/predestination (since you are one of the ‘elect’ you will come to faith, and you will persevere in faith, so it is still ‘once saved always saved’ because you cannot truly fall away.) If one that appears to profess faith and begin to live the Christian life, but then subsequently (for whatever reason) falls away, it merely shows that such a person was never ‘saved’ to begin with. Not that they were ‘saved’ or ‘justified’ and in a state of grace and then fell from that grace, as we believe is possible, but that they never were justified because they believe that justification is for the elect alone (and once justified you cannot fall from that state, even if it appears that you do for a time).

In short, they do not believe in Mortal sin for those that are justified, but at the same time they do not believe that you will be able to live in what would be habitual Mortal sin if you are indeed ‘saved’; so, in other words, you cannot fall from grace if you were to happen to commit adultery, but such a justified person will not commit adultery (or if he happens to, he will repent and turn from it unlike the reprobate who has no regard in his heart for the law of God). Basically, everything is turned around on its head because of how they understand predestination/election and justification/salvation which, in their theology, flows directly from those doctrines.

It also should be noted, that Calvinists do not believe that justification occurs in Baptism or that your sins are washed away by Baptism, but rather the moment you possess ‘fiducial faith’ is when this happens (like most Protestants, they believe that the Sacraments do not effectuate Habitual Grace). So, when you speak of the Sacraments and justification/saved/salvation he will probably have a different understanding of how this is effectuated.​

As far as what you should do:

I would ask him what he thinks that John 15 means: “Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away… If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned… If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love…” etc… Here our Lord clearly says that those branches that do not bear fruit are ‘taken away… and burned’ (the question is, how are they ‘taken away’ if they were ‘never there’ – never ‘in Christ’ to begin with? Also, He gives the conditions for ‘abiding in my love’ and that is to ‘keep my commandments.’

Hebrews 10: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” Remind him that those who are not Christians are not sanctified in any way by the ‘blood of the covenant’ yet clearly it is talking here about someone that has been ‘sanctified by the blood of the covenant’ and yet fallen away through ‘sinning deliberately’, it is not saying that this person was never ‘saved’ in-fact, quite the opposite.

Also, couple of my other favorites is 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 where Paul (the Apostle!) talks about disciplining his body lest he be rejected after preaching to others… 2 Peter 2:20-22: clearly talking about those who have fallen away ‘the sow returning to wallow in the mire’. Also, 1 John 5: where John clearly talks about some sins not being ‘mortal’ or ‘unto death’ and some sin that is ‘mortal’ or ‘unto death.’

Ask him what he thinks these verses mean (and, really, countless others that talk about falling away), and how they fit into his theology if those who fall away were ‘never saved’ because that is not the language used by the Biblical authors. You may also ask him what he believes about Baptism; show him the Scripture passages that talk about Baptism ‘washing away sins’ and also, if he has a respect for history, show him the quotes from the Early Church Fathers that talk about Baptism (there are tons of them). If you can convince him of Baptismal Regeneration (and if he is even remotely systematic in his theology) the rest of the erroneous Reformed doctrines may go out the window pretty fast (because, if we are ‘saved’ in baptism – and if it is impossible to fall away if you are ‘saved’ – then that means that everyone that has been baptized will be obtain final salvation – which no sane person will accept). At least, that is what got me away from Reformed theology and started me on the Catholic road. And, above all, pray for his soul. 😉

P.S. sorry about the rather long winded post!

Pax Domini sit semper tecum!
 
I know what you mean.

Are they purposefully ignoring the Truth or do hey truly believe it wholeheartedly?
Missconception i think. Every time I met my uncle, he kept telling me: Jesus has been crucified for all our sins, so now no matter what we do, we are saved. (He seemed to believe it wholeheartedly)

I was still in my early teenage at that time, but I kept my ears shut because I didn’t believe what he said and my mom told me: don’t listen to him (mom is a Protestant, educated at Catholic schools (me, too)).

I’m sure that if i meet him again now and he still tells such things, we will have a huge debate
 
Although I don’t know all of the facets of what he believes, but it sounds like he may be a Calvinist, or at least influenced by some of the Reformed beliefs. Calvinists do believe that works are ‘part of salvation’ in that the ‘saved person’ will do good works. They use phrases like ‘salvation is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone’ hence, to be ‘saved’ does not require any works to initiate or maintain – or anything except ‘fiducial faith’ (this is more than mere belief, but rather trust and confidence in Christ alone for salvation. However, this does not equate to the ‘Faith, Hope and Charity’ that we Catholics believe is necessary to be in a state of grace), but once you are ‘saved’ you proceed to do good works (because you have been regenerated) and will indeed persevere unto the end of your life in both faith and at least some good works because of election/predestination (since you are one of the ‘elect’ you will come to faith, and you will persevere in faith, so it is still ‘once saved always saved’ because you cannot truly fall away.) If one that appears to profess faith and begin to live the Christian life, but then subsequently (for whatever reason) falls away, it merely shows that such a person was never ‘saved’ to begin with. Not that they were ‘saved’ or ‘justified’ and in a state of grace and then fell from that grace, as we believe is possible, but that they never were justified because they believe that justification is for the elect alone (and once justified you cannot fall from that state, even if it appears that you do for a time).

In short, they do not believe in Mortal sin for those that are justified, but at the same time they do not believe that you will be able to live in what would be habitual Mortal sin if you are indeed ‘saved’; so, in other words, you cannot fall from grace if you were to happen to commit adultery, but such a justified person will not commit adultery (or if he happens to, he will repent and turn from it unlike the reprobate who has no regard in his heart for the law of God). Basically, everything is turned around on its head because of how they understand predestination/election and justification/salvation which, in their theology, flows directly from those doctrines.

It also should be noted, that Calvinists do not believe that justification occurs in Baptism or that your sins are washed away by Baptism, but rather the moment you possess ‘fiducial faith’ is when this happens (like most Protestants, they believe that the Sacraments do not effectuate Habitual Grace). So, when you speak of the Sacraments and justification/saved/salvation he will probably have a different understanding of how this is effectuated.​

Pax Domini sit semper tecum!
Good explaination thank you. I had been Protestant my whole life, baptized Reformed (Calvinist), but I know absolutely nothing about its doctrine because I’ve been studying at Catholic schools my whole life and got most of advices from Catholic nuns, priests and pastors
 
Missconception i think. Every time I met my uncle, he kept telling me: Jesus has been crucified for all our sins, so now no matter what we do, we are saved. (He seemed to believe it wholeheartedly)

I was still in my early teenage at that time, but I kept my ears shut because I didn’t believe what he said and my mom told me: don’t listen to him (mom is a Protestant, educated at Catholic schools (me, too)).

I’m sure that if i meet him again now and he still tells such things, we will have a huge debate
The reason that he (and other Calvinists) believe this is because of how they understand the Atonement and how it connects with Justification (and Predestination, since everything in their theology is linked to predestination). They believe that in the Atonement, Christ paid for all of the sins of only the elect, past, present and future. They believe that the moment that one possesses fiducial faith that all of their sins (past, present and future) are imputed to Christ and then Christ’s perfect righteousness is imputed to their account (so that when God looks at ‘you’ He sees Christ’s perfect righteousness) and so he ‘declares’ you perfectly righteous, despite the fact that you are not. One of the popular phrases in the Reformation was ‘simul justus et peccator’ - “simultaneously just and sinner” because one is still a sinner (because of their understanding of Original Sin we commit sin with pretty much every action) yet we are ‘just’ because of Christ’s imputed righteousness. This is why, as I mentioned above, one cannot be condemned or commit Mortal sin, for any reason, if they are elect - because they believe that Christ has paid for all of their sins already, how can they be punished for sins already paid for? (the fact that they do not fall away and that they must perform good works is only because of the Holy Spirit who prevents it). The Calvinist sect is very systematic (unlike some Protestant groups), but it is deeply flawed in many ways.
Good explaination thank you. I had been Protestant my whole life, baptized Reformed (Calvinist), but I know absolutely nothing about its doctrine because I’ve been studying at Catholic schools my whole life and got most of advices from Catholic nuns, priests and pastors
You’re welcome. You are indeed blessed for having been raised in Catholic schools. I spent a year and a half or two years in the Reformed Church after I came to faith in Christ and carefully learned (and believed, like your uncle) their doctrines. But, by the grace of God, and through a lot of reading and research I found the Truth and the Catholic Church.

Pax Domini
 
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