J
john_charles
Guest
On October 23 my wife accepted a free gift from God, Salvation.Now She is saved and NOTHING can ever change, or take this away.What do you think?
- Status
D
deb1
Guest
It is very wonderful that your wife has become a Christian. I am very happy for her.
You are espousing a once saved, always saved(called osas on these forums) belief. Catholics do not believe in OSAS. Can you provide bible verses to back up your claim that you can’t loose salvation? Also, do you believe in free will?
You are espousing a once saved, always saved(called osas on these forums) belief. Catholics do not believe in OSAS. Can you provide bible verses to back up your claim that you can’t loose salvation? Also, do you believe in free will?
C
Chipper
Guest
john charles:
I as a Catholic, believe that a person living on this earth, can loose his/her salvation, before they die, eventhough they have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. I, mean come on, if a “Saved” person later on decides to murder people, and seeks no repentance, then is the type of person you would like be associated with in heaven? Does God make us share heaven with unrepentant murderers? I think heaven would be a strange place if that were the case.
Well, actually in reality, Catholics do believe in “OSAS”. It is a matterr of timing. Catholics do believe that once we are in heaven, we will be there for eternity.
I as a Catholic, believe that a person living on this earth, can loose his/her salvation, before they die, eventhough they have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. I, mean come on, if a “Saved” person later on decides to murder people, and seeks no repentance, then is the type of person you would like be associated with in heaven? Does God make us share heaven with unrepentant murderers? I think heaven would be a strange place if that were the case.
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
Good point. This might become my stock answer to the tired OSAS discussion.
Scott
U
una_veritas
Guest
Don’t forget free will! While your wife has embraced God, don’t forget she can turn away just as easily. To keep her faith going, give her good spiritual books to read and encourage her to ask questions about the faith. Let her make some good Christian friends to support and don’t forget she has you as a guide!
F
FCEGM
Guest
john charles:
So, “once saved-always saved” is a presumption without all the evidence in.
Sacred Scripture does assure us of God’s love for us, and His tender mercy. But it doesn’t assure us that we may be presumptuous about that love and mercy and judge ourselves vis-a-vis our acceptance of His salvation. We know HE is always faithful, but we must not presume that WE will always be faithful and respond positively to HIS fidelity. Since we cannot see into the future now and see what sins we may commit which may call into question the sincerity of a profession of our faith, we do not have assurance.
So, “once saved-always saved” is a presumption without all the evidence in.
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
I could point to a lot of Bible passages to disprove this, but I really think that this one ought to be all anyone ever needs.
(Philippians 3:10-16)
First, St. Paul says that he wants to somehow obtain the resurrection from the dead. The meaning of this phrase is better put in english to read “assuming I somehow attain the resurrection of the dead.” So what St. Paul tells us is that he wants to know the power of Christ’s resurrection assuming he attains the resurrection of the dead. This very strongly indicates that St. Paul does not know if he is going to attain the resurrection, but if he does, he will know these things.
Next, the apostle tells us that he has not already obtained it, but he presses onward in an effort to take hold of the resurrection. Common sense tells us that St. Paul has already given his life over to Christ. However, he goes even further, saying not only that he has given his life to Christ but that Christ has already taken hold of him. This is critical. So many folks who believe in OSAS say that once you put your faith in Christ, He has become Lord over you, and holds you in His hand, and has taken you over, so you cannot lose your salvation. But here St. Paul specifically says that Christ has already taken hold of him, yet he has not already obtained salvation.
If St. Paul didn’t know he had assurance of salvation, I sure as heck can’t.
(note that this is even stronger when taken with 1 Corinthians 9:27, where St. Paul tells us that he has to be careful so he isn’t disqualified from salvation. If St. Paul can be disqualified, so can I! Also, in Philippians 2:12, the apostle warns us to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”)
St. Paul said:
(Philippians 3:10-16)
First, St. Paul says that he wants to somehow obtain the resurrection from the dead. The meaning of this phrase is better put in english to read “assuming I somehow attain the resurrection of the dead.” So what St. Paul tells us is that he wants to know the power of Christ’s resurrection assuming he attains the resurrection of the dead. This very strongly indicates that St. Paul does not know if he is going to attain the resurrection, but if he does, he will know these things.
Next, the apostle tells us that he has not already obtained it, but he presses onward in an effort to take hold of the resurrection. Common sense tells us that St. Paul has already given his life over to Christ. However, he goes even further, saying not only that he has given his life to Christ but that Christ has already taken hold of him. This is critical. So many folks who believe in OSAS say that once you put your faith in Christ, He has become Lord over you, and holds you in His hand, and has taken you over, so you cannot lose your salvation. But here St. Paul specifically says that Christ has already taken hold of him, yet he has not already obtained salvation.
If St. Paul didn’t know he had assurance of salvation, I sure as heck can’t.
(note that this is even stronger when taken with 1 Corinthians 9:27, where St. Paul tells us that he has to be careful so he isn’t disqualified from salvation. If St. Paul can be disqualified, so can I! Also, in Philippians 2:12, the apostle warns us to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”)
T
trumpet152
Guest
Well put. I like that way of looking at it.
P
Philthy
Guest
john charles:
I know that Scripture states explicitly: If you do not forgive others their trespasses neither will your father in heaven forgive you yours.
Im almost positive that people will continue to sin against your wife.
I don’t believe that we can forgive in the future sense - I cant claim to forgive someone that has not yet sinned against me, and I dont think your wife can either.
I conclude that until your wife has forgiven others of every sin - past, present and future - her sins have not yet been forgiven and her salvation, though real, is incomplete. She will simply have to live a life of forgiveness until she dies and then, if she has met the other requirements of salvation she will be completely and eternally saved.
What do you think?
Phil
I think that salvation requires the forgiveness of our sins.
I know that Scripture states explicitly: If you do not forgive others their trespasses neither will your father in heaven forgive you yours.
Im almost positive that people will continue to sin against your wife.
I don’t believe that we can forgive in the future sense - I cant claim to forgive someone that has not yet sinned against me, and I dont think your wife can either.
I conclude that until your wife has forgiven others of every sin - past, present and future - her sins have not yet been forgiven and her salvation, though real, is incomplete. She will simply have to live a life of forgiveness until she dies and then, if she has met the other requirements of salvation she will be completely and eternally saved.
What do you think?
Phil
Q
quasimodo
Guest
Verily!
P
Philthy
Guest
Luke 8:4-15
When a large crowd gathered, with people from one town after another journeying to him, he spoke in a parable. “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path and was trampled, and the birds of the sky ate it up. Some seed fell on rocky ground, and when it grew, it withered for lack of moisture. Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it. And some seed fell on good soil, and when it grew, it produced fruit a hundredfold.” After saying this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.” Then his disciples asked him what the meaning of this parable might be. He answered, "Knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been granted to you; but to the rest, they are made known through parables so that ´they may look but not see, and hear but not understand.´ “ This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit. But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.
When a large crowd gathered, with people from one town after another journeying to him, he spoke in a parable. “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path and was trampled, and the birds of the sky ate it up. Some seed fell on rocky ground, and when it grew, it withered for lack of moisture. Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it. And some seed fell on good soil, and when it grew, it produced fruit a hundredfold.” After saying this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.” Then his disciples asked him what the meaning of this parable might be. He answered, "Knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been granted to you; but to the rest, they are made known through parables so that ´they may look but not see, and hear but not understand.´ “ This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit. But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.
- Status