One Apologist's Perspective

[Randy_Carson]

Us NCC can be such an annoying pain in the BLEEP UHH!!

With Dr. Sippo’s attitude–I dont see him convincing any protestant to swim the Tiber.

Well, let me put this perspective in another context. I will use an indelicate analogy taken from a recruiting poster used by the 82nd Airborne Division during the 1970 which described an event which occurred during World War II.

hughcox.com/82d_poster_photo_by_G3.gif

Here is the full text:

Dec. 23, 1944 - “Battle of the Bulge” - An entire U.S. armored division was retreating from the Germans in the Ardennes forest when a sergeant in a tank destroyer spotted an American digging a foxhole. The GI, PFC Martin, 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, looked up and asked, “Are you looking for a safe place?” “Yeah” answered the tanker. “Well, buddy,” he drawled, “just pull your vehicle behind me …
I’m the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are going.”

Sometimes, Catholics feel like we have to take a stand against what we perceive to be continual drift away from the truth. Of course, I understand you feel the same way.

So, here we are.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[toaslan]

“Are you looking for a safe place?” “Yeah” answered the tanker. “Well, buddy,” he drawled, “just pull your vehicle behind me …
I’m the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are going.”

Sometimes, Catholics feel like we have to take a stand against what we perceive to be continual drift away from the truth. Of course, I understand you feel the same way.

So, here we are.

Ok, chills. Want this image & legend poster size! :yup: Amen to that feeling. Just have to let the feeling launch rather than control expression/action. Using the Force for Good

 

[Carol_Coombe]

"The only thing the Protestants have that is of any value is the Bible which we gave them and apart from Catholic Authority, that Bible is just another religious book. They need to recognize their debt to us and the fact that Protestantism CONTRADICTS not only the Ancient Catholic Faith but Scripture as well. Protestantism was a religious innovation based on Nominalist philosophy and not a return to Biblical faith.

“That is the truth and it is not negotiable.”

Dr. Art Sippo

Quoted by permission.

With respect, I think that there is huge overlap between this thread and the one entitled ‘Is there one true church’. Many of the arguments are the same, and as a result, the discussion will go over ground that is already being trodden by rampant faithful on either side of the divide.

Is it useful to have a second go at this? The first go has been a long and difficult struggle. This one will be worse, starting from a very negative perspective as it does.

Jabulani!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ok, chills. Want this image & legend poster size! :yup: Amen to that feeling. Just have to let the feeling launch rather than control expression/action. Using the Force for Good

hughcox.com/82dairborne.htm

517prct.org/documents/82nd_airborne_poster/82nd_airborne_poster.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

With respect, I think that there is huge overlap between this thread and the one entitled ‘Is there one true church’. Many of the arguments are the same, and as a result, the discussion will go over ground that is already being trodden by rampant faithful on either side of the divide.

Is it useful to have a second go at this? The first go has been a long and difficult struggle. This one will be worse, starting from a very negative perspective as it does.

Jabulani!

One thread contains the battle itself. This thread deals with how we feel about fighting it.

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We can never forgive them for forcing us to kill theirs.”

• Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You don’t want to pick one thing out? come on!

Thanks, but the thread is not about those posting on it ​

 

[Carol_Coombe]

One thread contains the battle itself. This thread deals with how we feel about fighting it.

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We can never forgive them for forcing us to kill theirs.”

• Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Right, several observations then:

(1) It is not entirely clear from the opening post that this is all about ‘how we feel about fighting’ … what?
There is no question, just a rather dreadful statement which drops garbage from a great height on protestant battle tactics (!), and then makes the well-known defence in terms which are hardly appropriate here.

(2) What is your motivation for continuing fighting this battle in the first place (pace Iraq, a battle that cannot be won)? There may be a number: Is it because (1) you dislike being disagreed with; (2) you feel cross that the schism happened and perhaps guilty; (3) you want to save the souls of the poor lost Christians wandering about in the desert; or (4) as you feel under attack too often, you need to attack back? There are inevitably others.

I think the motive for asserting Catholic Truth against ‘protestant ignorance’ is moot, and differs from Christian to Christian. There is plenty of bigotry on both sides of the fence.

(3) It is sad that this argument - which is actually technical in nature with little to do with real Christianity, Christian faith and life - dominates debate, as we know it will never be resolved. What do I, as a protestant trying hard to become a Catholic feel about the Catholic battle against determined protestant ignorance, devious tactics, and Machiavellian schemes to undermine the Absolute Truth given to the Catholic Church ? Given whatever motivation, it is actually boring. But it is easy to debate because it is based on opinion, determination, some knowledge of the Bible, and a presumption of Catholicism’s infallible and eternal right to Christ’s legacy. Those against whom it is conducted are largely ignorant of the righteous indignation of the Catholic faithful. Those who know get annoyed, and tired of being asked once again to justify their perfectly tenable position.

(4) I would like to share an observation from the other thread on the one true church from ncjohn, Franciscan secular:

The Church’s teaching on the whole thing is pretty succinctly stated, both in the catechism and in this passage from Unitatis Redintegratio, 3):

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Yes, we should be trying to help Protestants find the fullness of the faith. But to be making claims that they cannot be saved is just pure and simply outside of Church teaching.

The fact that a Catholic Christian mistrusts a protestant interpretation or practice does not make it wrong. The fact that a protestant Christian cannot accept certain interpretations and rituals of the CC does not mean that they are invalid or wrong. On the whole, why not get on with being Christians? There lies the One Absolute Truth that was given to humanity.

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[toaslan]

Thanks for the links, Randy!

 

[mrteachersir]

Carol,

This thread was never meant to be an articulate defence of the Faith…rather, a way for some of us to discuss how we feel in certain situations. Pride, arrogance and ignorance hinder us (on both sides) at every step…can’t we feel frustrated?

Dr. Sippo’s peice was not intended to be a defence of Catholicism, an argument against Protestantism, or anything but a statement of occasional feelings.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Carol,

This thread was never meant to be an articulate defence of the Faith…rather, a way for some of us to discuss how we feel in certain situations. Pride, arrogance and ignorance hinder us (on both sides) at every step…can’t we feel frustrated?

Dr. Sippo’s peice was not intended to be a defence of Catholicism, an argument against Protestantism, or anything but a statement of occasional feelings.

I understand that perfectly. I think it was perhaps an unfortunately rabid example to use, but it does set out the (probably not too occasional) problems Catholics have with protestant tactics when the latter are required once again to defend their faith.

Randy has explained (as have you) that this thread has to do with how we feel about defence of the faith - and I assume that is on both sides. I am content to watch, although as a would-be convert, I am straddling both sides of the chasm of total frustration, and do not like much to be in this position. Not lady-like, apart from anything else.

My points above still stand: the continuing doctrinal battle and consequent skirmishes are actually boring. For 2000 years the squabble has gone on. It will never be resolved, and you know that. It only does a degree of emotional and spiritual damage that is hard to undo. And it creates the kind of outrage that you are now having to deal with. Is this a Good Thing? Is it necessary? Is it a macho thing? Why?

You go ahead with your agenda, but remember you did mention that there are two sides to the frustration. And I would also like to know, as I read, the motivation for the battle for lost souls. If the faithful respected the faith of The Other, there would be no battle, and thus no need for frustration etc. So discuss motivation first.

Jabulani!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Right, several observations then:

(1) It is not entirely clear from the opening post that this is all about ‘how we feel about fighting’ … what?
There is no question, just a rather dreadful statement which drops garbage from a great height on protestant battle tactics (!), and then makes the well-known defence in terms which are hardly appropriate here.

(2) What is your motivation for continuing fighting this battle in the first place (pace Iraq, a battle that cannot be won)? There may be a number: Is it because (1) you dislike being disagreed with; (2) you feel cross that the schism happened and perhaps guilty; (3) you want to save the souls of the poor lost Christians wandering about in the desert; or (4) as you feel under attack too often, you need to attack back? There are inevitably others.

I think the motive for asserting Catholic Truth against ‘protestant ignorance’ is moot, and differs from Christian to Christian. There is plenty of bigotry on both sides of the fence.

(3) It is sad that this argument - which is actually technical in nature with little to do with real Christianity, Christian faith and life - dominates debate, as we know it will never be resolved. What do I, as a protestant trying hard to become a Catholic feel about the Catholic battle against determined protestant ignorance, devious tactics, and Machiavellian schemes to undermine the Absolute Truth given to the Catholic Church ? Given whatever motivation, it is actually boring. But it is easy to debate because it is based on opinion, determination, some knowledge of the Bible, and a presumption of Catholicism’s infallible and eternal right to Christ’s legacy. Those against whom it is conducted are largely ignorant of the righteous indignation of the Catholic faithful. Those who know get annoyed, and tired of being asked once again to justify their perfectly tenable position.

(4) I would like to share an observation from the other thread on the one true church from ncjohn, Franciscan secular:

The fact that a Catholic Christian mistrusts a protestant interpretation or practice does not make it wrong. The fact that a protestant Christian cannot accept certain interpretations and rituals of the CC does not mean that they are invalid or wrong. On the whole, why not get on with being Christians? There lies the One Absolute Truth that was given to humanity.

Blessings

Jabulani!

Just a quick question then…are you saying that it is perfectly okay that Christianity is divided and that many Christians believe doctrines which are contradictory to the true faith revealed to the Church by God so strongly that they feel compelled to attack that Church and lead its members out of the Chruch and into the same errors that they themselves have fallen into?

Thanks in advance? :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand that perfectly. I think it was perhaps an unfortunately rabid example to use, but it does set out the (probably not too occasional) problems Catholics have with protestant tactics when the latter are required once again to defend their faith.

Randy has explained (as have you) that this thread has to do with how we feel about defence of the faith - and I assume that is on both sides. I am content to watch, although as a would-be convert, I am straddling both sides of the chasm of total frustration, and do not like much to be in this position. Not lady-like, apart from anything else.

My points above still stand: the continuing doctrinal battle and consequent skirmishes are actually boring. For 2000 years the squabble has gone on. It will never be resolved, and you know that. It only does a degree of emotional and spiritual damage that is hard to undo. And it creates the kind of outrage that you are now having to deal with. Is this a Good Thing? Is it necessary? Is it a macho thing? Why?

You go ahead with your agenda, but remember you did mention that there are two sides to the frustration. And I would also like to know, as I read, the motivation for the battle for lost souls. If the faithful respected the faith of The Other, there would be no battle, and thus no need for frustration etc. So discuss motivation first.

Jabulani!

Carol-

This is an apologetics board. It’s why the board exists.

If apologetics is not to your liking, I can assure you that you will find other aspects of Catholicism to which you feel called.

It’s a “big tent.”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Are you saying that it is perfectly okay that Christianity is divided?

Of course it is not ‘perfectly OK’: one would much prefer unification of Christendom. But the fact is that it is divided. That is a fact. If and when I become a Catholic, I will concentrate on being a good Catholic Christian, and that does not involve a whole lot of energy spent on trying to pull the lost sheep back into the kraal.

and that many Christians believe doctrines which are contradictory to the true faith revealed to the [Catholic] Church by God

The Catholic Church preaches Absolute Truth, which it owns, just as it claims to own the Bible which is used by Jews and Muslims as well as by Christians. At least that is the charicature which is lofted on the Forum by many Catholics. I do not think that this represents the true official posture of the Catholic Church.

So what is the ‘true faith’? I am not at all sure, outside of CCC which is ready for editing I believe.

I think there are many mainline Christian protestant churches which respect the Catholic Church (Baptist, Presbyterian, United Church, Methodist, Anglican/Episcopalian etc), and whose doctrines for the most part are not in substance contradictory to the doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church.

There are, inevitably, unique sects which are actually not as contradictory as they are just plain odd.

I think you mean that the ‘true faith’ was revealed to the Catholic Church. I have suggested elsewhere that it was revealed to the universal church of Christ, which subsequently fragmented. The fact is that everyone owns a bit or all of the truth.

so strongly that they feel compelled to attack that Church

I have not encountered this in my own long protestant Christian career. But I am willing to believe that it happens horribly from what I have seen on this Forum. People are indeed compelled to attack the Catholic Church. But do you think that it is sometimes in frustration at the idea that the Catholic Church insists on owning the Absolute Truth and condemning those to hell who do not concur; that CC insists on its own integrity and the lack of integrity of The Other; that CC seems to want to draw in all the lost sheep, who may not want to be drawn in?

and lead its members out of the Church

Again, I have not been aware of this happening in the countries - UK, Canada, South Africa, Zambia - where I have lived. The CC is growing hugely in Africa and in Asia; in SA we confirm littlies so that they are registered with the church while young and will come back later when they get smarts.

and into the same errors that they themselves have fallen into?

I was never aware that as a Baptist I had fallen into error. I knew there was supposed to be a red hotline between my church and God, and I rejected that idea in favour of a more broad-minded God with a lot to be getting on with. I knew that my Sainted Aunt Mary of the Victorian era prayed for the French-Canadian nuns in their wonderful long black habits because she was convinced that although they lived lives of great purity, there was not a snowballs chance in hell of their reaching heaven. It troubled her greatly.

If we leave the issue of who has errors and who has truth to individuals of conscience to sort out - and is it not true that most ‘choose’ their faith by birth - we can stop the carnage of disagreement between denominations.

Or can you suggest a motivation that would explain why CC insists that it must draw all Christians into belief in its interpretation of One Absolute Truth?

Blessings.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Are you saying that it is perfectly okay that Christianity is divided?

Of course it is not ‘perfectly OK’: one would much prefer unification of Christendom. But the fact is that it is divided. That is a fact. If and when I become a Catholic, I will concentrate on being a good Catholic Christian, and that does not involve a whole lot of energy spent on trying to pull the lost sheep back into the kraal.

and that many Christians believe doctrines which are contradictory to the true faith revealed to the [Catholic] Church by God

The Catholic Church preaches Absolute Truth, which it owns, just as it claims to own the Bible which is used by Jews and Muslims as well as by Christians. At least that is the charicature which is lofted on the Forum by many Catholics. I do not think that this represents the true official posture of the Catholic Church.

So what is the ‘true faith’? I am not at all sure, outside of CCC which is ready for editing I believe.

I think there are many mainline Christian protestant churches which respect the Catholic Church (Baptist, Presbyterian, United Church, Methodist, Anglican/Episcopalian etc), and whose doctrines for the most part are not in substance contradictory to the doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church.

There are, inevitably, unique sects which are actually not as contradictory as they are just plain odd.

I think you mean that the ‘true faith’ was revealed to the Catholic Church. I have suggested elsewhere that it was revealed to the universal church of Christ, which subsequently fragmented. The fact is that everyone owns a bit or all of the truth.

so strongly that they feel compelled to attack that Church

I have not encountered this in my own long protestant Christian career. But I am willing to believe that it happens horribly from what I have seen on this Forum. People are indeed compelled to attack the Catholic Church. But do you think that it is sometimes in frustration at the idea that the Catholic Church insists on owning the Absolute Truth and condemning those to hell who do not concur; that CC insists on its own integrity and the lack of integrity of The Other; that CC seems to want to draw in all the lost sheep, who may not want to be drawn in?

and lead its members out of the Church

Again, I have not been aware of this happening in the countries - UK, Canada, South Africa, Zambia - where I have lived. The CC is growing hugely in Africa and in Asia; in SA we confirm littlies so that they are registered with the Catholic Church while young and will come back later when they get smarts.

and into the same errors that they themselves have fallen into?

I was never aware that as a Baptist I had fallen into error. I knew there was supposed to be a red hotline between my church and God, and I rejected that idea in favour of a more broad-minded God with a lot to be getting on with. I knew that my Sainted Aunt Mary of the Victorian era prayed for the French-Canadian nuns in their wonderful long black habits because she was convinced that although they lived lives of great purity, there was not a snowball’s chance in hell of their reaching heaven. It troubled her greatly.

If we leave the issue of who has errors and who has truth to individuals of conscience to sort out - and is it not true that most ‘choose’ their faith by birth - we can stop the carnage of disagreement between denominations.

Blessings.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

A big thankyou! for letting me reply to your ‘quick question’! I hope I did not stay too long off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
Carol-

This is an apologetics board. It’s why the board exists.

If apologetics is not to your liking, I can assure you that you will find other aspects of Catholicism to which you feel called.

*It’s a “big tent.” *

Why have I stuck around on Apologetics for almost two months? Just because I don’t like it?

This is the third or fourth time it has been suggested that I move from Apologetics. Perhaps into something much softer and kinder like You do have time to pray a rosary!; Obedience vs joy; The seven daily habits of holy apostolic people; Thread for courageous/same sex attracted males; Interpretation of tounges (sic); Devotion to St Michael; Is it bad to buy products from China?; Favourite saint story; and Fatima concept.

Am I missing something, or am I being patronised by male posters? Sorry for getting in your way? You may have meant something else, but it doesn’t sound like it? I promised I would just watch you big guys do battle!

 

[Randy_Carson]

A big thankyou! for letting me reply to your ‘quick question’! I hope I did not stay too long off topic.

Why have I stuck around on Apologetics for almost two months? Just because I don’t like it?

This is the third or fourth time it has been suggested that I move from Apologetics. Perhaps into something much softer and kinder like You do have time to pray a rosary!; Obedience vs joy; The seven daily habits of holy apostolic people; Thread for courageous/same sex attracted males; Interpretation of tounges (sic); Devotion to St Michael; Is it bad to buy products from China?; Favourite saint story; and Fatima concept.

Am I missing something, or am I being patronised by male posters? Sorry for getting in your way? You may have meant something else, but it doesn’t sound like it? I promised I would just watch you big guys do battle!

Carol-

I commented as I did because you seem to find apologetics distasteful. So, perhaps other areas would be less so. Volunteering at crisis-pregnancy centers, feeding the poor, catechizing kids…I dunno.

One on one, apologetics has a softer tone - though I can tell you that you haven’t lived until you’ve had a rabid southern Baptist tell you that you aren’t even a Christian if you’re Catholic. Life is a bit different for Catholics here in the “Bible Belt” of the USA!

Online, it’s a bit more aggressive, and that isn’t for everybody. But if you watch closely, you’ll see some soft-spoken ladies like LilyM and Water getting in their points in a very charitable fashion.

Pattern yourself after them, and you’ll make a very nice contribution.

But please don’t look down on those of us who have to take on the more unpleasant characters who need to be taken to the theological woodshed now and then.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Carol-

I commented as I did because you seem to find apologetics distasteful. So, perhaps other areas would be less so. Volunteering at crisis-pregnancy centers, feeding the poor, catechizing kids…I dunno.

One on one, apologetics has a softer tone - though I can tell you that you haven’t lived until you’ve had a rabid southern Baptist tell you that you aren’t even a Christian if you’re Catholic. Life is a bit different for Catholics here in the “Bible Belt” of the USA!

Online, it’s a bit more aggressive, and that isn’t for everybody. But if you watch closely, you’ll see some soft-spoken ladies like LilyM and Water getting in their points in a very charitable fashion.

Pattern yourself after them, and you’ll make a very nice contribution.

But please don’t look down on those of us who have to take on the more unpleasant characters who need to be taken to the theological woodshed now and then.

Hope this helps.

Have decided, charitably, that you are being provocative, insincere, and patronising. That’s OK because I have been through tons of it after two months on Apologetics. Trauma? Been there done that. Attack? Been there done that. International development? Been there, done that, got the burnout. Rabid ignoramouses? Been there done that. Unpleasant characters? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the red ribbon. Apologetics? Been there, survived, stronger and harder.

I shall put myself where I choose, but thank you for your kind advice and evident concern for my well-being.

Blessings, and hope this helps.

Jabulani!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Have decided, charitably, that you are being provocative, insincere, and patronising.

Carol-

I was actually being sincere and offering what I really thought was thoughtful advice. How the heck I was misinterpreted is a mystery. I honestly thought that you struggle with the "edgy, in-your-faceness of Internet apologetics, and I was suggesting that it isn’t for everyone. Catechetics and Apologetics are two very different beasts.

If you like teaching the faith but don’t care for the arguing and bickering, Catechetics may be more to your liking.

If you don’t mind the “rough and tumble”, then by all means, have at it. There’s lots of room on the rampart for those who want to defend the faith!

That’s OK because I have been through tons of it after two months on Apologetics. Trauma? Been there done that. Attack? Been there done that. International development? Been there, done that, got the burnout. Rabid ignoramouses? Been there done that. Unpleasant characters? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the red ribbon. Apologetics? Been there, survived, stronger and harder.

I shall put myself where I choose, but thank you for your kind advice and evident concern for my well-being.

Blessings, and hope this helps.

Jabulani!

It does, and many thanks. :tiphat:

 

[mrteachersir]

If the faithful respected the faith of The Other, there would be no battle, and thus no need for frustration etc.

There will always be a battle. Everywhere, Truth is perverted by the whims of the fallen. The faith of the other is irrelevent…it is her or his soul that matters. I will respect each individual as a creature of God, and therefore worthy of human dignity. I cannot grant the same thing to corruption of the Truth.

And I would also like to know, as I read, the motivation for the battle for lost souls. So discuss motivation first.

My motivation has several parts to it:

1. While there are a few examples of anti-Protestants (I have yet to meet any here), I have experienced thousands of examples of anti-Catholicism. School children refer to “Christians and Catholics”, Catholic children are criticized by their peers, and led astray from a “dogmatic ideology”. “Christian” bookstores carry books on Catholicism under the section called “Non-Christian Sects”. My mother and father all but disowned me when I swam the Tiber in 2000, and my minister sister dismisses my Catholic views as irrelevent based solely on the fact they are Catholic. Much of these examples I experienced before becoming Catholic. Each and everyone of those experiences recieves a charitable (I hope) response grounded in revealed Truth.
2. I believe the Truth was revealed by God to us to help us live happy lives. Yet even our seperated brethren have subverted Truth to their own selfish fancies. The Anglican Church was created to allow Henry VIII to get a divorce. In 1996, the United Methodist district in the Delaware Valley actually discussed removing any condemnation of homosexual activity from its offical documents, and seriously considered ordaining practicing homosexuals. Such seflish fancies have contributed to a collapse of morality, and has led us to levels of fornication and adultery and murder (with abortion and otherwise) never before heard of. When every Protestant denomination breaks with consistent Christian teaching concerning contraception and divorce (which Christ himself condemned), Truth must be preached. This hedonistic, selfish behavior does lend itself to happiness, but to misery. God did not intend His Flock to be miserable. The Truth was given to ensure happiness.
3. Within the Church, I have found peace and happiness like I’ve never felt before (even when I was saved the three times I “accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior”). I have found meaning in attending weekly services (the Blessed Sacrament), and discovered the intrinsic beauty of our Christian Faith otherwise hidden under the guise of Protestantism. I have found new life. I want others to feel the same happiness, joy and new life that I have.