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frommi
Guest
With all due respect to the cardinal, it still takes some careful planning to do everything in the rubrics “well”. It doesn’t just happen.
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Walking_Home
Guest
read the black----do the red.
Yup------I need to carefully plan to read and do.
Yup------I need to carefully plan to read and do.
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msproule
Guest
I wasn’t there, but I suspect his point may have been that frequent experimentation and manipulation are unnecessary. Unfortunately, this is what many Catholics (especially in southeast MI) experience week to week. So I offer this alternative:
Read the black; Plan accurately and implement earnestly; Do the red
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frommi
Guest
I’m not sure I believe that. This idea of ‘innovation’ is completely overrated. For the most part, the things that are done are generally approved by the local ordinary.
Where people get their mantillas in a bunch is when each mass doesn’t look and feel exactly the ‘same’. The reality is you can follow the rubrics to a tea, but the personality of the community and the celebrant are going to be infused into the celebration of the liturgy.
Look at JPII’s funeral. If it had been held indoors, I don’t think you would have heard a large crowd start chanting “santo subito”. But the spirit of the congregation just ‘did that’. There was no rubric for it, it just happened.
Likewise, for the veneration of the cross on Good Friday. I’ve been in some parishes where it looks like a Communion Procession to go up the cross, I’ve been in some that a massive Cross is brought in that people approach from all sides.
Everyone is following the rubric…but the execution is somewhat different.
Yes…I know…lay preaching…‘cookie’ eucharistic bread…blah blah blah…I’ve heard it all a zillion times in these forums. The fact of the matter is that Cardinal Arinze still substitutes a little too much of his own personal piety for the judgment of bishops around the world, which is too bad.
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msproule
Guest
Approval of a practice by the local ordinary, tacit or otherwise, does not mean it is above reproach.
The examples you describe are spontaneous events, not planned ones. This does not seem to apply to what Cardinal Arinze said, unless of course the “santo subito” chant was being practiced ahead of time under the guidance of the liturgy committee and musical director!
He is just doing his job…well.
:clapping:
Then again, you might be right…he probably just added the part “and the Discipline of the Sacraments” to his Congregation’s title. That must be why it is officially abbreviated only with CDW.
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frommi
Guest
I simply think it obscures the reality of the office of Bishop when Cardinal Arinze decides to change the fraction rite from its tradition of 2000 years simply because he has a belief that the precious blood could ‘spill’. Which btw…I have NEVER seen happen in 30 years.He is just doing his job…well.
:clapping:
Then again, you might be right…he probably just added the part “and the Discipline of the Sacraments” to his Congregation’s title. That must be why it is officially abbreviated only with CDW.
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MrS
Guest
I have… and the procession of happy communicates walked over the carpet like it was no big deal… and the priest let them.
.
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msproule
Guest
Conversely, I think it enhances and strengthens the Episcopacy by offering constructive criticism, among other things.
Has it been that long? Don’t answer that here (it would be off-topic), but please feel free to PM me with supporting evidence. If 2000 years is accurate, it’s no wonder disobedience persists!
How fortunate for you to never have witnessed something like that! Like MrS, I have seen it happen (in far less than 30 years). But, our combined experience amounts to almost nil in the grand scheme of things. I would venture to suggest that Cardinal Arinze has access to far more information than we do. Therefore, I doubt he made an arbitrary decision on this matter in complete disregard for what is historically and sensibly correct.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Pax tecum!
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that for the last 2,000 years the Precious Blood has been poored after the consecration? That’s funny…because neither the Roman nor Dominican Rite does that. In fact, in the Dominican Low Mass, the chalice is prepared before the Mass begins, and in a High Mass, after the Epistle is read. The Novus Ordo rubrics clearly state that the wine is to be poured before the consecration as well. I don’t see where this “2,000 year tradition” that you’re talking about comes from.
In Christ,
Rand
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frommi
Guest
I was speaking of the fraction rite…you know, the agnus dei.
One bread, one cup…poured out for the many.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Pax tecum!
But the Precious Blood has never been poured after the consecration. The host is fractioned, but the Precious Blood is never poured. I don’t really understand your answer. What I was asking is if you were saying that pouring the Precious Blood after the consecration is a “2,000 year old tradition”.
In Christ,
Rand
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netmilsmom
Guest
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
This thread represents posts split from a thread which took it off topic.
Regretfully time constraints will often simply cause posts to be deleted rather than creating a new thread with them and so your assistance in preventing this from happening would be very much appreciated.
Regretfully time constraints will often simply cause posts to be deleted rather than creating a new thread with them and so your assistance in preventing this from happening would be very much appreciated.
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msproule
Guest
Thanks, Marian! I was wondering where this thread had gone.
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AJV
Guest
"frommi:
[there are three types of fraction-
one at the words of consecration,
one in between the end of the Anaphora and the communion in a mystical manner,
and one functional before communion-
the Roman rite has the second only, though in some places this has of late been conflated with the third. That is why it is said currently during the Lamb of God- as representing Christ’s immolation on the cross]
Even in rites which have the functional fraction before communion, only the Body is fractioned and never the Precious Blood. The early texts such as Ordo Rom. I also give the wine being poured into chalices by the archdeacon and his deacons and acolytes before the Consecration at the Offertory and only the Body being fractioned after communion- first a mystical one by the Pope who places the particle (fermentum) on a paten and then functional.
The Precious Blood was never fractioned in any rite. Even in the fractions that came before communion .
[there are three types of fraction-
one at the words of consecration,
one in between the end of the Anaphora and the communion in a mystical manner,
and one functional before communion-
the Roman rite has the second only, though in some places this has of late been conflated with the third. That is why it is said currently during the Lamb of God- as representing Christ’s immolation on the cross]
Even in rites which have the functional fraction before communion, only the Body is fractioned and never the Precious Blood. The early texts such as Ordo Rom. I also give the wine being poured into chalices by the archdeacon and his deacons and acolytes before the Consecration at the Offertory and only the Body being fractioned after communion- first a mystical one by the Pope who places the particle (fermentum) on a paten and then functional.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Thanks Marian for your hard work!
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
Photo of the moderator –
:getholy:
:getholy:
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