One must believe to understand?

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Dranu

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Okay, so I am going through a trying time with my faith admittedly. I am inclined to think that (although I was far from certain) there is more reason to believe Catholicism than not. However, two major issues come to me with that realization that are causing me great difficulty:

1.) What about those who have very little intellectual capabilities. It seems right faith does not require reason (is reason even the right way to come to it?)

2.) Most importantly and like #1: ** Many saints I respect (including St. Anselm) seem to state that we ought to believe prior to understanding. If that is the case why not just will to believe any old faith (including some nut-job-cult)? Why Christianity (remember it seems understanding must come after the belief.)?**
 
Okay, so I am going through a trying time with my faith admittedly. I am inclined to think that (although I was far from certain) there is more reason to believe Catholicism than not. However, two major issues come to me with that realization that are causing me great difficulty:

1.) What about those who have very little intellectual capabilities. It seems right faith does not require reason (is reason even the right way to come to it?)

2.) Most importantly and like #1: ** Many saints I respect (including St. Anselm) seem to state that we ought to believe prior to understanding. If that is the case why not just will to believe any old faith (including some nut-job-cult)? Why Christianity (remember it seems understanding must come after the belief.)?**
Faith is a gift, even some who are given the gift refuse it.

In terms of the relationship between faith and reason, I love Kierkegaard on this point. You can never expect to reason yourself into a position of faith. There is no logical or historical argument that will lead necessarily to faith, in the way a geometry problem leads to one answer.

I have been reading Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin. The first story of exorcism in that book is about a woman who studies philosophy and comes to the conclusion that there is no absolute truth. She ultimately becomes possessed. Satan and the evil spirits are masters at sowing confusion, especially in philosophy.

I also think that humility is required for faith. Faith necessarily means that I don’t know it all and have to trust God. You ask “why not will to believe any old faith?” It is important to have an historical understanding. I am not just believing any old faith, I am believing in the faith given to the Apostles and handed down through the ages. However, this is dependent on believing in the resurrection and that Christ was not crazy. Why do I believe this? There is no logical answer, only that faith is a gift.

Yours in Christ.
 
Faith does not contradict reason. I think of it this way: science deals with the “hows” and faith addresses the “whys.” The fact that some may not fully comprehend the “hows” does not make faith less credible. When I make this distinction in my mind, I find that it clears up a lot of confusion.

I think the saints say that because without understanding the truth of Christ, everything else is absurd. Taken out of religious context, there would be no reason for anything to happen at all. Life would be an aimless chain reaction of events. One must first understand that God began everything; otherwise, nothing that happens after makes any sense. Life itself would be purposeless.
 
Faith is the primary act of love of God.

Primary - the first step. I take this step toward God. The Prodigal Son turned toward home; then his father ran to meet him.
Act - dynamic as opposed to potential. Even a profession of faith is an act. No matter how badly the Prodigal Son wanted to return home, his journey did not begin until he took the first step.
Love - undertaken for its own sake, not for its utility. The Prodigal Son did not expect to gain anything from his return home except to return home.

The Prodigal Son had reasons for beginning his return. Faith has reasons as well, as many as there are people, some complex and grand, some simple. Hence faith is rational. But faith walks on two legs - one reason, the other love.

And in the valleys, I always remind myself to act as if … act as if you have faith and faith will be yours.
 
Taken out of religious context, there would be no reason for anything to happen at all. Life would be an aimless chain reaction of events. One must first understand that God began everything; otherwise, nothing that happens after makes any sense. Life itself would be purposeless.
So you’re saying that with God as a prime mover, everything makes sense? How so? Are we all just God’s whimsy then? How does that add purpose to anything?:confused:

To say that ‘life would be an aimless chain reaction of events’ is rather facile. The aim is the propagation of life. There doesn’t need to be an ultimate purpose devised by some supernatural being. Life exists for its own sake. What’s wrong with that?

You seem to be saying, “I can’t see any ultimate goal-based reason why life propagates, but there must be a goal, therefore it must be God’s goal.” But only the first part of that sentence has any real validity. There doesn’t have to be a goal, and it certainly doesn’t have to be God’s goal.
 
But what does Anselm say we must believe in order to understand? He does not say that the first step is faith in religious doctrine. All knowledge requires faith in the possibility of knowledge at all. That is the starting point.
 
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xpistou:
You ask “why not will to believe any old faith?” It is important to have an historical understanding. I am not just believing any old faith, I am believing in the faith given to the Apostles and handed down through the ages. However, this is dependent on believing in the resurrection and that Christ was not crazy. Why do I believe this? There is no logical answer, only that faith is a gift.
But if it is only faith, why is it that it happens to be in Christianity, or even theistic religion at all? I am certainly inclined to think reason favors it (and Catholicism above all), but that route seems to have some of the problems I suggested. Furthermore, if that is the case when can one seal themselves into a faith? For even though I think reason is inclined in that way, in many ways it may mean attempting to close myself off from investigation into other possibilities.
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Biggie:
Hence faith is rational. But faith walks on two legs - one reason, the other love.
Are you saying love and reason are components of faith, or that they allow faith to flourish? If the former, it would seem to make understanding of first importance prior to faith which would run into my first to issues. If it is the latter I agree, however, I would ask:

1.) Why be faithful?
2.) To what ought we be faithful (herein lies the problem of choosing just any creed, which reason seems to solve, but if it solves it then it seems that reason comes before faith. In fact, just in answering it seems we place reason prior to faith)?

—I realize now how ignorant I am to ‘faith’. My problem is if it is prior to understanding I do not see how it is not blind. I use to see it as something after it; that is acting on mere reasons rather than certain full knowledge, but my two reasons in the OP changed my mind a bit a long with a lot of coincidental things. My mind as of late is either lacking its normal clarity (which is not much anyhow :D) or seeing a lot of ignorance in my mind I was not aware of earlier.
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—I realize now how ignorant I am to ‘faith’. My problem is if it is prior to understanding I do not see how it is not blind. I use to see it as something after it; that is acting on mere reasons rather than certain full knowledge, but my two reasons in the OP changed my mind a bit a long with a lot of coincidental things. My mind as of late is either lacking its normal clarity (which is not much anyhow :D) or seeing a lot of ignorance in my mind I was not aware of earlier.
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What things do you think that you know without recourse to faith?

Faith is not opposed to reason, but rather it’s handmaid. That is, when we choose to put our faith in something, we do it 1) knowing what the “unknowable” parts of the faith are, and 2) making sure that the knowable ones bear a positive relationship to reason and love.

Consider another kind of faith, faith in one’s spouse. One should not marry without good reason to think the potential spouse is a good and truthful person. Additionally, it might be felt that it is a good idea not to marry until one is an adult with a little experience of people, able to make a reasonable judgement. And it is allowable to ask a trusted person for an opinion, say a mother. But it is, of course, impossible to see into that person’s heart, to know every place he has gone and every thing he has done.

But it is still reasonable to put faith and marry a person who deserves that faith. (And this relates to hope and love also.) Once married, you can still meet other people and have other friends, but you don’t pursue romantic relationships with them. And the spouse must come first. You also don’t follow your spouse around and spy so you can see all of his activities. Doing that will ruin the marriage, but having faith will allow it to grow, and allow you to know your spouse in a way you didn’t before.

But, if your best friend or other reliable source tells you that your spouse has another family in Atlanta, you might have reason to check it out. And if it’s true, well, you were never really married.

Religious faith has a lot in common with this scenario. And I would suggest that this type of faith is often what is meant when the church talks about needing faith.
 
Faith is a gift, even some who are given the gift refuse it.
  1. How do you know this?
  2. If faith is a gift, then salvation is predestined. What happened to free will?
  3. I’ve also read on this forum that** everyone** receives this gift, which is a response to 2. But there are many people on the planet who have never believed in Jesus, so this claim is false.
I have been reading Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin. The first story of exorcism in that book is about a woman who studies philosophy and comes to the conclusion that there is no absolute truth. She ultimately becomes possessed. Satan and the evil spirits are masters at sowing confusion, especially in philosophy.
I’ve read this book too, quite entertaining as far as ghost stories go. Whenever you read pages and pages of dialogue recounted from distant memories (supposedly), and prose about what people are thinking, you can be fairly certain it is fiction.
You ask “why not will to believe any old faith?” It is important to have an historical understanding. I am not just believing any old faith, I am believing in the faith given to the Apostles and handed down through the ages. However, this is dependent on believing in the resurrection and that Christ was not crazy. Why do I believe this? There is no logical answer, only that faith is a gift.
This seems quite arbitrary. Buddhists have an older tradition of teachings being handed down through the ages. Why not follow the Eightfold Noble Path instead of the younger Gospel teachings?
 
Dranu:
1.) What about those who have very little intellectual capabilities. It seems right faith does not require reason (is reason even the right way to come to it?)
I don’t think so, (even though my hovering in the philosophy area seems to convey that :)).

I think wisdom,self denial and submission are the route. These are what to strive for. What you seek will be gifted. One favorite person comes to mind as a model to emulate.

St. Bernadette was given the indignity of an insult when the bishop told her she was stupid. She readily admitted it without phasing her in the least. So we can say she possessed favor that wasn’t based on acquired knowledge. It was her simplicity, lack of resistance. So she believed her ministers without question and was made to understand what is important to understand and that is wisdom.

Andy
 
Consider another kind of faith, faith in one’s spouse. One should not marry without good reason to think the potential spouse is a good and truthful person. Additionally, it might be felt that it is a good idea not to marry until one is an adult with a little experience of people, able to make a reasonable judgement.
Agreed but isn’t that reason/understanding (to some degree) before faith?
 
But if it is only faith, why is it that it happens to be in Christianity, or even theistic religion at all? I am certainly inclined to think reason favors it (and Catholicism above all), but that route seems to have some of the problems I suggested. Furthermore, if that is the case when can one seal themselves into a faith? For even though I think reason is inclined in that way, in many ways it may mean attempting to close myself off from investigation into other possibilities.
What is faith?

Faith is an act. And I can discern at least three varieties.

Absurd faith; a leap of faith; example, Abraham: he did something that went against every bit of reason, attempted to murder his son because God told him to, simply out of faith. In this sense, faith and reason are opposite extremes.

Simple faith; something you expect or believe without ever questioning it, even questioning it seems absurd. Example: that the sun will rise tomorrow. We live most of our lives on this type of faith.

Strong belief; example, the martyrs, whether religious, political, etc.; they believed so strongly in the … that they were willing to die for it. There is definitely a spectrum here from “willing to die for it” to “simple conviction”.

All three of these acts are categorically different than understanding—also an act. Understand is familiarity with, knowledge of, etc. On the other hand, faith is the act required when understanding is absent. Faith fills in the gaps between acts of understanding.

But faith is also an object; example: the Catholic faith, faith in God, etc.

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking: How do I know that Catholicism (the object of faith) is true? Notice that your question is about the truth of an object. However, the sciences ask about the truth of an object, whereas you have completely failed to ask a question about faith (the act) entirely.

Your question should be: I have some understanding that Catholicism is true, but there are gaps in that understanding. How do I obtain faith to fill in those gaps? Or how do I make an act of faith in the first place?

Yours in Christ.
 
Faith (the object) is a gift.
  1. How do you know this?
Because not everyone believes in Jesus, as you point out.
  1. If faith is a gift, then salvation is predestined. What happened to free will?
You are assuming that salvation is dependent on having the proper object of faith. I disagree. Non Christians can also be saved.
  1. I’ve also read on this forum that** everyone** receives this gift, which is a response to 2. But there are many people on the planet who have never believed in Jesus, so this claim is false.
Everyone is capable of making an act of faith. But not everyone uses that capacity.
I’ve read this book too, quite entertaining as far as ghost stories go. Whenever you read pages and pages of dialogue recounted from distant memories (supposedly), and prose about what people are thinking, you can be fairly certain it is fiction.
“you can be fairly certain”… good job, there you go exercising your capacity for acts of faith.
 
Or how do I make an act of faith in the first place?
My main question would rather be, if faith comes before reason, why do I make an act of faith in the first place? For if it is unguided by reason it might as well end up in some evil cult. If that is not the case, then how do I make a proper act of faith (though that seems to place reason first)?
 
My main question would rather be, if faith comes before reason, why do I make an act of faith in the first place? For if it is unguided by reason it might as well end up in some evil cult. If that is not the case, then how do I make a proper act of faith (though that seems to place reason first)?
I think you are still confusing an object of faith “some evil cult” with an act of faith. Use your reason to make sure the object of your faith is not some evil cult. But reason alone is not sufficient to be Christian. You need an act of faith.

I don’t think it is a simple “what comes first” question, like the chicken or the egg. You need both.
 
Agreed but isn’t that reason/understanding (to some degree) before faith?
In this analogy - maybe. Although you do have to have faith in the idea that a happy marraige is possible, that some people are trustworthy, and so on.

But if you want to know with relation to the idea that faith is necessary to knowledge, then yopu need to start thinking about it in a slightly different way than you are. You need to think beyond religious faith.

I suggested to you previously that Anselm did NOT say that religious faith was the first step to knowledge. THat is very much to the point. However, faith is indeed the first step to all philisophical, scientific, or experiential knowledge. Even knowledge of the self.

The idea that human knowledge is even a possibility rests on a number of assumptions that are not only unprovable in a strict mathematical or logical way, in some cases we have no rational reason to assert them at all. For example, the basis of all human reasoning is the Law of Non-Contradiction. It is a matter of faith. If we want to observe the world and draw conclusions about it, we must assume the world actually exists and is not a figment of our imagination. Again, no proof is possible. To do science we assume that the laws of the universe are the same throughout time and space, again, an assumption.

So the first step in any kind of knowing requires faith that the universe is indeed knowable, that it exists at all. Now, many people find this kind of faith relatively easy, although there are those who dispute those things - extreme skeptics and the like. That is a kind of failure both of hope and desire (love).

Once a person is at this point, there is all kinds of natural knowledge available o him. That natural knowledge provides the material to make good decisions about religious faith. So in that sense, reason and also experience inform religious faith. Once we have made that leap, religious faith begins to inform reason and experience. Faith and understanding form a synergistic relationship and can deepen together.

But faith is at the root of knowledge as a whole.
 
1.) What about those who have very little intellectual capabilities. It seems right faith does not require reason (is reason even the right way to come to it?)
This question seems a bit vague: faith does not require deep intellectual capability or children would be incapable of believing, which is clearly not the case. Rather than saying that faith does not require reason it is more accurate to say that faith does not conflict with reason.

Both the light of reason and the light of faith come from God … hence there can be no contradiction between them (Aquinas). … Faith therefore has no fear of reason, but seeks it out and has trust in it. (Fides et Ration #43)

*To believe is nothing other than to think with assent … Believers are also thinkers: in believing, they think and in thinking, they believe… If faith does not think it is nothing. *(FR #79)
2.) Most importantly and like #1: ** Many saints I respect (including St. Anselm) seem to state that we ought to believe prior to understanding. If that is the case why not just will to believe any old faith (including some nut-job-cult)? Why Christianity (remember it seems understanding must come after the belief.)?**
How does one go about solving a difficult problem? You start by making some assumptions and testing your hypothesis to see if it is true. If your initial assumptions were valid then, even as you dig deeper into your subject, all your answers will hang together but if you went wrong at the beginning then no matter how diligently you struggle you will never resolve the problem. St. Anselm is saying that Christianity is true and if you choose to follow that path you will, over time, resolve some of the questions you have, questions which cannot be resolved by going any other way.

Faith is a choice. At a fork in the road you have to choose the route you think will lead you to your destination; Anselm is claiming that Christ is the way but until you take that path you will not understand why.

Ender
 
Because not everyone believes in Jesus, as you point out.
I can think of another simpler reason why Asians might not believe in Jesus; they have never heard of the story. I think that’s a more probable explanation than their refusal to act on the gift of faith. There are other religions with this kind of blanket coverage. According to Islam, everyone is born a Muslim. Those that do not believe, are apostates.

So I ask again; how do **you **know faith is a gift given to all?
You are assuming that salvation is dependent on having the proper object of faith. I disagree. Non Christians can also be saved.
How can people receive the gift of faith (say some Amazon stone age tribesmen), yet have no knowledge of the Jesus story? If everyone receives the gift of faith, what need then for the Pontifical Society for the Propagation of the Faith ?
“you can be fairly certain”… good job, there you go exercising your capacity for acts of faith.
Right, but this is a different category of faith as you earlier explained. This is simple faith. The same faith that helps me lead my life without worrying about the chance of me stepping out my door into another dimension where the existing physical laws don’t apply.
 
Are you saying love and reason are components of faith, or that they allow faith to flourish? If the former, it would seem to make understanding of first importance prior to faith which would run into my first to issues. If it is the latter I agree, however, I would ask:

1.) Why be faithful?
2.) To what ought we be faithful (herein lies the problem of choosing just any creed, which reason seems to solve, but if it solves it then it seems that reason comes before faith. In fact, just in answering it seems we place reason prior to faith)?

—I realize now how ignorant I am to ‘faith’. My problem is if it is prior to understanding I do not see how it is not blind. I use to see it as something after it; that is acting on mere reasons rather than certain full knowledge, but my two reasons in the OP changed my mind a bit a long with a lot of coincidental things. My mind as of late is either lacking its normal clarity (which is not much anyhow :D) or seeing a lot of ignorance in my mind I was not aware of earlier.
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I would answer first by repeating that to me faith is an act of reason (it is rational) and faith is an act of love (not undertaken for its utility). It therefore commits the whole being. May I explain?

To my thinking, in the fallen being, the capacity to reason is itself fractured. We reason as dying beings, unlike Adam. And unlike pristine man, we have taken unto ourselves our own well being. This, in my lexicon, is the meaning of Adam’s awareness of his nakedness and subsequent covering of it. One result is that reason must be pressed into use in the fulfillment of the needs of the being. Rationality, that which can be used, and irrationality, that which is of no potential use, is born in that effort.

And what is the activity of reason in the fallen being? It reduces the outside world in the form of concepts to its parts, and reassembles it in new ways useful to the being. It sees a tree, reduces it to wood and reassembles it into a home, conceptually. The process of reason is virtually digestive. That which does not lend itself to this digestive process is, at least in the interim, irrational.

Love presents a problem for reason. On the one hand, it appeals to reason in as much as utility can be found in love - the benefits of friendship and community, for example. On the other hand, strictly speaking, it’s work is against the effort of reason in as much as it threatens the existence of self. It makes no sense to give away food when you are hungry or will be hungry. Reason cannot fully rationalize love, and yet cannot irrationalize it, if you will.

This is so in as much as love is a capacity of the being on a par with reason and, by the way, reason is uncomfortable with that relationship since the rational view of fallen reason’s own work is to take charge of the sustenance of the being. Reason can ill tolerate voices to the contrary as it works out man’s fulfillment.

If any of this has made sense to you, we can go on to faith as a principal expression of both reason and love, but I wanted to establish the playing field, at least in terms of my own thinking. Or we can take the shorthand - which comes first in faith, reason or love? It is simply a matter of whether one steps out with one’s right foot or one’s left, but one has not moved until both feet have.
 
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