One Nation Under Gods

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Tkdnick,
Your question was addressed to Augustine and I’m curious to see his reply but I thought I’d chime in too. Many books about Mormonism are either too sugary sweet for many people or obviously anti with all the accompanying negative bias. I recently found a good introduction to Mormonism that seems more balanced that I recommend to someone looking for a introductory knowledge of the church. It’s called The Latter-day Saint Experience in America (The American Religious Experience) by Terryl L. Givens. It’s expensive at $55 but very good and may be available at the library. It doesn’t go too deep in any direction but it does hit a lot of different topics.

Here’s the Editorial Review off Amazon:

Book Description
Scholars have labeled the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormonism as it is better known, both the American Religion, and the next world faith. The Mormon saga includes early persecution, conflict, and pioneer resilience, against a backdrop of revolutionary religious, social, and economic practices. The greatest colonizing force in American history, Mormonism has outgrown its 19th-century isolation and theocratic roots to become one of the most prosperous and respected Christian communities in the country. This book examines the history of the movement, and considers carefully the reasons behind a perennial discord with American culture–and the American government–that only waned in the early decades of the 20th century. Givens also considers the range of Mormon doctrines–both familiar and peculiar–and overviews the background and content of the unique canon of Mormon scripture.

About the Author
*TERRYL L. GIVENS is Professor of Religion and Literature at the University of Richmond, Virginia. He is the author of By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion (2002) and The Viper on the Hearth: Mormons, Myths, and the Construction of Heresy (1997). *
 
BJ-- I would sincerely suggest that you check all those links. Some of them are DEFINITELY NOT virulently anti-Mormon, especially the last one on the list. It, and several others, are ONLY reprints of materials from historical documents, including Mormon documents.
.I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you have clearly internalized some virulently anti-Catholic propaganda.
. It is very disturbing to know there are people in the world filled with such hatred that they write books spouting their hatred and pass it off as the truth.
As I have indicated before, Mormons have spouted lies about their history for generations, without giving others the right to tell the story.
 
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Casen:
It’s called The Latter-day Saint Experience in America (The American Religious Experience) by Terryl L. Givens. It’s expensive at $55 but very good and may be available at the library. It doesn’t go too deep in any direction but it does hit a lot of different topics.
That is pretty dang expensive. Then again, I guess if I’m going to be serious student of, and do serious research about, Mormonism then it is a book I should get at some point.
 
I agree it’s expensive. I bought a copy for my Dad and my wife asked why I spent so much on a book!
 
Thanks, Casen.

I just requested all three of his books, plus Indian Origins and Magic World View. 😉
 
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Jerusha:
BJ-- I would sincerely suggest that you check all those links. Some of them are DEFINITELY NOT virulently anti-Mormon, especially the last one on the list. It, and several others, are ONLY reprints of materials from historical documents, including Mormon documents.
.I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you have clearly internalized some virulently anti-Catholic propaganda.

As I have indicated before, Mormons have spouted lies about their history for generations, without giving others the right to tell the story.
I will try to check the others later, I did check the first 5 and found them very offensive. Then when I tried the next ones my computer was on overload or something and I could not pull them up. Thanks for the info…I don’t know about the lies, but I am sure you have a reason for saying that.
Why would “others” who hate Mormons tell the truth over people who are Mormons? Seems to me they would be more inclined to lie and make Mormons look like bad guys. We aren’t, you know, just as Catholics aren’t bad guys either in spite of what “others” say. I prefer not to pay attention to the “others” on either side Catholic or Mormon. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it is always very interesting. 🙂 BJ
 
Some are bitter from past experiences. I know some Pentecostals exaggerate and spread misconceptions, and refuse to look at the imperfections in their own faith/culture.

The next ones are better, however, why don’t you just skip to the last one? It is a treasure trove of information.

To quote another poster here, Mormons are not saints.
 
I don’t know if this is the right place for this or maybe you have already discussed this in another thread but was there anything definate that made you see the light or let you see that Catholicism was the real deal?

Oh, just read your public profile and read that you are Anglican so I edited this post. Have you ever seen The Journey Home on EWTN??? I think during the past week they have had quite a few conversion stories from England.

PioAndrew
 
To whom are you addressing that question, Andrew?

I am not Mormon, never have been, and never will be. Neither were my ancestors. My roots are deep in the Nauvoo area, and I wound up in an area of the country that is/has been dominated by mormonazis. I was raised to ignore them, not realizing how much subtle and not-so-subtle an influence they had on my life.
 
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Jerusha:
Some are bitter from past experiences. I know some Pentecostals exaggerate and spread misconceptions, and refuse to look at the imperfections in their own faith/culture.

The next ones are better, however, why don’t you just skip to the last one? It is a treasure trove of information.

To quote another poster here, Mormons are not saints.
Wow, talk about treasure trove, but where do I start? I did bring up some old California newspapers articles from the 1800s. But, I could read this stuff for years, and what am I looking for specifically? Is it just historical stuff? Or is there something I am supposed see? It sounds like from his own description of himself, that he is preacher of some sort and was originally FLDS, so must just be collecting information as a hobby. I did not see any newspaper articles that were anything but daily news of the time.

True not all Mormons are saints, just as all Catholics are not saints, but we can always hope, by following Jesus Christ’s example, we may become such. To us Saints are those who follow Jesus Christ. So under that definition you are a saint also. 👍 BJ
 
I would suggest that you start with some of the earliest stuff (maybe Nauvoo area). The Warsaw newspaper helped me develop the idea that things turned real bad because the Mormons were invaded by a bunch of thugs. They had their problems in Western Missouri, but it got a lot worse when they ended up in Illinois. Thomas Sharp’s concern, and urging the avoidance of violence, was because there were some relatively law-abiding people there. He was not as evil as your church paints him to be. Freedom of the press and the polygamy issue were what broke things loose. The government did not have any interest at that time in prosecuting for offenses against the Indian tribe across the river.

“Uncle Dale” appears to be an open-minded person, more like Casen. I see him as being more culturally Mormon than religiously so. He says he is independent from any established church hierarchy. I don’t know if he was FLDS, although I know his last name is common there. I think he is the kind who believes that a thorough and open review of Mormon history can guide your church to a radical reform.
 
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otm:
Considering that you are a former Mormon, or LDS, what would you recommend reading?
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tkdnick:
Hey flame,
Any specific books of the Tanners you would recommend?
Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992

Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.

The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.

Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.

The Tanner’s work has been contraverted by LDS apologists, but many of these refutations blunt the jagged edges of theTanners’ own biases without fully refuting the very real criticisms raised by the evidence they bring out. ***Changing World of Mormonism ***is an abridgement of Mormonism–Shadow or Reality, and includes only the very best of the Tanner’s material. Buy one or the other, not both.

I have several times posted a bibliography of LDS books which I recommend that non-Mormons read to understand the LDS faith from the inside. Don’t ‘major’ in anti-Mormon material–it will be obvious to any sophisticated LDS person that you’re really not all that familiar with their faith and that moreover you’re not really interested. They’ll write you off as merely bigoted and you’ll have little impact.
 
flameburns623 said:
Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992

Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.

The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.

Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.

The Tanner’s work has been contraverted by LDS apologists, but many of these refutations blunt the jagged edges of theTanners’ own biases without fully refuting the very real criticisms raised by the evidence they bring out. ***Changing World of Mormonism ***is an abridgement of Mormonism–Shadow or Reality, and includes only the very best of the Tanner’s material. Buy one or the other, not both.

I have several times posted a bibliography of LDS books which I recommend that non-Mormons read to understand the LDS faith from the inside. Don’t ‘major’ in anti-Mormon material–it will be obvious to any sophisticated LDS person that you’re really not all that familiar with their faith and that moreover you’re not really interested. They’ll write you off as merely bigoted and you’ll have little impact.

Thanks. I have access to three books, and keep forgetting to write down the names and titles.

From what I have read and seen, there seems to be a great deal of historical work (who was where when and what happened), and a lot of religious work, buyt little or no theological work eminating fro LDS writers. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t see any. Nor do I see any philosophical works based on their theological constructs.

Know of any?
 
Sarcastically:

Probably because their theology is like jello. It is real slippery, and the person doing the missionary work modifies it to meet whatever he thinks the person would like. Many internal contradictions because of theri concept of “living prophets”, all of whom are “God-inspired”.

Here is a lot of information: However, it is pretty anti–and they tend to overemphasize the real silly stuff. exmormon.org/ And here is the slippery place: lds.org/
 
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otm:
Thanks. I have access to three books, and keep forgetting to write down the names and titles.

From what I have read and seen, there seems to be a great deal of historical work (who was where when and what happened), and a lot of religious work, buyt little or no theological work eminating fro LDS writers. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t see any. Nor do I see any philosophical works based on their theological constructs.

Know of any?
Theological works would be difficult for LDS, simply because theology is the study of God. God for the LDS is simply not of the same nature as is normally understood as God by the major Christian or Islamic or Judaic religions. He seems to be a human being who was finite, and became infinite as he created with the help of angels who maintain a physical body. since the God proposed is such a finite and material creature, there can be no theology to work with. That is why it probably appears “slippery” to people. That happens when a series of truths are created on an untruthful foundation.
 
They regularly deny the wierder and more shameful aspects of their “Theology” (and history), even when amply documented, their ethics justifies "lying for the lard.’
 
Here’s that booklist I mentioned earlier:
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flameburns623:
The Articles of Faith by James Talmage

Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage

**A Marvelous Work and a Wonder **by LeGrand Richards

The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).

**Church History in the Fulness of Times **distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)

Gospel Principles Church Distribution

An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley

The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts (another much-revered classic LDS apologist–who is rumored to have suffered doubts about his Mormon faith in his declining years, btw).

Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)

**The Work and the Glory **Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history).

You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. Your girlfriends’ Ward library may also lend you some of them as well. And offer to lend you gobs of others. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you plenty of grasp of basic Mormonism.

Just making the effort to learn will help keep dialogue open. If all you do is read ‘anti-Mormon’ stuff and regurgitate this back to your Mormon acquaintances–you’ll hit the shoals of irresolvable disagreement pretty quickly. Especially when you stumble across something which is clearly inaccurate and/or hateful in it’s presentation. The Mormons will spot the inaccuracies immediately and ‘mark’ you mentally as someone who is simply uninterested in knowing the truth about their faith. They will usually cease giving you a hearing, and often they won’t bother even to pretend to listen

Over and beyond this I heartily advise people to read and study orthodox Christian doctrine and learn how to explain it to others and answer the most-common objections raised. Far better to learn the attributes of the authentic than to try to recognize every possible manifestation of the counterfeit.
 
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