C
cho_pilo
Guest
Do you think it is necessary for our salvation to have a personal relationship with the Church that Christ founded including all the rites, rituals and hierarchy? And why?
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U
UnworthyApostle
Guest
Well, I think the answer to your question is yes.
Now, there are different avenues that this question can be answered by.
There is first what we may call the argument from reason or sensibilty.
I will borrow this from your own question.
"Do you think it is necessary for our salvation to have a personal relationship with the Church that Christ founded including all the rites, rituals and hierarchy? "
1.There is a salvation of souls. (premise)
2.Salvation comes from Christ (premise)
3.Christ established a church (premise)
4.Since Christ established a church, it is sensible to that Christ works through it (implied,why establish a church if He would not use it?"
5.The church uses rituals, has a heirarchy, etc. (premise)
6.If there is a church Christ established and works through, then He works through the rituals, heirarchy, etc.(implied)
7.Therefore.salvation comes from Christ, Christ established and uses a church with rituals and heriarchy, it can be said that salvation comes through the church with rituals and heirarchy (conclusion,implied by prior steps)
Now, there are different avenues that this question can be answered by.
There is first what we may call the argument from reason or sensibilty.
I will borrow this from your own question.
"Do you think it is necessary for our salvation to have a personal relationship with the Church that Christ founded including all the rites, rituals and hierarchy? "
1.There is a salvation of souls. (premise)
2.Salvation comes from Christ (premise)
3.Christ established a church (premise)
4.Since Christ established a church, it is sensible to that Christ works through it (implied,why establish a church if He would not use it?"
5.The church uses rituals, has a heirarchy, etc. (premise)
6.If there is a church Christ established and works through, then He works through the rituals, heirarchy, etc.(implied)
7.Therefore.salvation comes from Christ, Christ established and uses a church with rituals and heriarchy, it can be said that salvation comes through the church with rituals and heirarchy (conclusion,implied by prior steps)
O
OscarsMama
Guest
Good one. Well, I think that every person has a “God-shaped” hole in their soul and we (all people) are on a constant search for something to fill that hole. The ONLY THING that will fill that hole is GOD, of course. We don’t like to think that, though. We like to fill it with stuff like money, fun, things, other people, our jobs, etc. That leaves us feeling “empty” in the end. 'Cause we can FEEL that hole. Even people that don’t believe in God, or Jesus, or anything can feel that hole. Look at all human behavior… it is obvious.
Now, can we fill the hole by being Catholic? I am a cradle Catholic, but I have gone though my “angry Catholic” stage, my “new age is awesome” stage, my “I am in college and I know everything” stage, my “I don’t think that I need the rules of the church” stage that many many cradle Catholics have gone through. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus GAVE us the Catholic church 'cause he KNEW us. He knew we would be seeking God… to fill that emptiness in our soul. He KNEW we would need something to cling to in this world to help us on that search. That is where we got the church. The sacraments are “food” for our life journey. God loves us. He didn’t want to toss us out into the world with no guidance or no help. He knows this world is hard. He knows this world will hurt us and make us question everything… most of all HIM. He needed to give us help. We can’t do it alone. That is why I think that we, as people, NEED the church.
Yes, the church is full of HUMAN BEINGS and YES bad things have happened. That is the nature of us humans. That is a SAD reality of being human and being in this world. And God has given us the Holy Sprit to help guide the church back on the right path so it can help guide us closer to God.
We are human beings. We are all looking for God. We need each other to help with that search.
As for “who goes to heaven” and “who goes to hell” and all that. Those things are up to God and God alone. The Catholic Church does not determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. They have not claimed to do so. They do teach the same things that Jesus taught 2000 years ago. God and God alone decides who goes where…
The best thing that we can all do is to make sure that we are always looking at God and help those around us to look in the same direction.
Now, can we fill the hole by being Catholic? I am a cradle Catholic, but I have gone though my “angry Catholic” stage, my “new age is awesome” stage, my “I am in college and I know everything” stage, my “I don’t think that I need the rules of the church” stage that many many cradle Catholics have gone through. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus GAVE us the Catholic church 'cause he KNEW us. He knew we would be seeking God… to fill that emptiness in our soul. He KNEW we would need something to cling to in this world to help us on that search. That is where we got the church. The sacraments are “food” for our life journey. God loves us. He didn’t want to toss us out into the world with no guidance or no help. He knows this world is hard. He knows this world will hurt us and make us question everything… most of all HIM. He needed to give us help. We can’t do it alone. That is why I think that we, as people, NEED the church.
Yes, the church is full of HUMAN BEINGS and YES bad things have happened. That is the nature of us humans. That is a SAD reality of being human and being in this world. And God has given us the Holy Sprit to help guide the church back on the right path so it can help guide us closer to God.
We are human beings. We are all looking for God. We need each other to help with that search.
As for “who goes to heaven” and “who goes to hell” and all that. Those things are up to God and God alone. The Catholic Church does not determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. They have not claimed to do so. They do teach the same things that Jesus taught 2000 years ago. God and God alone decides who goes where…
The best thing that we can all do is to make sure that we are always looking at God and help those around us to look in the same direction.
J
JRKH
Guest
I think, like unworthy apostle above, that there are different avenues one can take with this question. The Catechism presents the best summary of an answer.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
To gain a deeper understanding of the Church’s teaching on this matter, Please read this section of the Catechism on the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
So based on what is written above, the strictest answer to the OP question has to be no, it is not strictly “necessary” (that is in all cases) to salvation to have a “personal relationship with the Church that Christ founded including all the rites, rituals and hierarchy”.
However, great care and caution must be taken in applying this teaching. It cannot be used as a “loophole” to remain outside the church once reasonably assured of the Church’s validity.
As an analogy, we could ask if it is necessary to go to university in order to learn everything you need to know, everything that we could learn at university?
In the strictest sense - no.
However there are many things, tangible and intangible, that universities offer that make it far easier and better to go than to not go.
This is nowhere near a complete answer but…
Peace
James
C
cho_pilo
Guest
It is not clear how it is even theoretically possible to be reasonably sure of the validity of something, and yet not (aspire to) act accordingly.
Only an insane or evil entity might be capable of that; but that opens the question of the relevance of the issue in the first place.
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JRKH
Guest
To an extent I agree, especially in the way that we understand things today. However many ceturies ago, things like sin, absolution etc. were understood differently by many people and they would believe in the Church yet hold off being baptized until late in life, or even on their deathbed, for fear that they sin after baptism and not go to heaven.
In a more modern sense I’ve seen people, converts, on the Journey Home Program (EWTN - Monday nights 8:00 pm) speak of coming to the conviction that the Catholic Church was the correct Church and yet hold off joining for some reason or another, usually related to family or job concerns.
I myself, after many years away from the Church, hesitated for some time applying for an annulment in order to return because, 1) I didn’t want to dredge up a lot of junk for other people and 2) I didn’t think I could reasonably and truthfully be granted an annulment.
When I finally screwed up the courage to apply the annulment was granted.
So perhaps this is something to be added to your list “insane or evil”…Lack of courage.
Peace
James
C
cho_pilo
Guest
Then they weren’t really convinced after all.
In my own experience, and what I have heard and read from others, when it comes to choice of religion, people are sometimes subject to very unhealthy patterns.
For example, a good guilt trip can convince a person that they believe something - when in fact they don’t.
P
praxising
Guest
They weren’t? Huh. I am totally convinced if I eat fast food it will be very bad for me in the long run in terms of my health and my waistline.
See me in that line at Burger King?
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JRKH
Guest
Well I believe that we should not try to read too much into other people’s motivations and timing in these matters as they are highly personal in nature.
I note that you did not address my addition of “Courage” (or lack thereof) to the list of things that might stop a person from formally entering the church.
As to just what specific things bring people to conviction, htese will vary with the indiviudal.
Peace
James
P
puzzleannie
Guest
I suggest you ask Jesus Christ that question, since he is the one who founded his Church, on the night before he died commanded unity with her, and insisted that those who love him–who desire a personal relationship with him–obey his commands. All of them, not just the ones they pick and chose. John’s gospel. Last supper discourse
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greylorn
Guest
No. That’s because the notion of “our salvation” has, IMO, nothing whatsoever to do with why humans exist.
C
cho_pilo
Guest
I believe that if a person is truly convinced of something, they will act accordingly. If they aren’t convinced, they won’t act accordingly.
This is not to say that everyone who acts a certain way has the according convictions.
Just that when the issue is about declaring convictions, then actions are the measure of them.
J
JRKH
Guest
Agreed. However, I have heard the testimonies of former protestant pastors and spouses of pastors who held back from formally entering the church for a time due to financial concerns etc. They were convicted of the Truth of the Church and yet…
I suppose that one could say that this is merely a stage in the process of conviction and then building up the courage to act on that conviction. That is, a stage whereby one must translate the growing conviction into action.
Otherwise I agree with you. A person’s action in this matter is a measure of their conviction.
Peace
James
C
cho_pilo
Guest
I don’t see where you have answered that question -?
J
JRKH
Guest
C
cho_pilo
Guest
“What makes you certain that you’ve chosen the correct faith?”
J
JRKH
Guest
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